11-05-2005 09:19									#61
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quote: Reagan did alot of good thing, his hard-line foreign policy was very important for cracking the communists. Particularly his financing of the Afghani rebels against the Soviets helped to bankrupt the USSR.

That people still believe this is testament to the power of propaganda. The Soviet Union was doomed for many reasons, most of which started before Reagan came to power.

And Carter actually started the Afghan thing.

	11-05-2005 09:22									#62
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Let us now praise Matt Cale, who put this webpage together; I've bolded my favorites:

quote: Let His Own Words Indict Him -- The Real Ronald Reagan Compiled by Matt Cale... "Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." -- 1981 "A tree is a tree. How many more do you have to look at?" -- 1966, opposing expansion of Redwood National Park as governor of California. "I have flown twice over Mt. St. Helens out on our west coast. I'm not a scientist and I don't know the figures, but I have a suspicion that that one little mountain has probably released more sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere of the world than has been released in the last ten years of automobile driving or things of that kind that people are so concerned about." -- 1980, (Actually, Mount St. Helens, at its peak activity, emitted about 2,000 tons of sulfur dioxide per day, compared with 81,000 tons per day by cars.) "Facts are stupid things." -- 1988, a misquote of John Adams, "Facts are stubborn things." "Fascism was really the basis for the New Deal." -- 1976 "You can't help those who simply will not be helped. One problem that we've had, even in the best of times, is people who are sleeping on the grates, the homeless who are homeless, you might say, by choice." -- 1/31/84, on Good Morning America, defending his administration against charges of callousness. "(The Contras are) the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers." -- 1985 "I read every comic strip in the paper." -- 1984 "(Nazi soldiers) were victims, just as sure as the victims in the concentration camps." -- 1985 "How are you, Mr. Mayor? I'm glad to meet you. How are things in your city?" -- (Proving they all look alike to him when greeting the only African American member of his cabinet, Housing Secretary Samuel Pierce, June 12, 1981). "We think there is a parallel between federal involvement in education and the decline in profit over recent years." -- (Explaining that the recession is due to educating children, April 26, 1983). "He wrote in Braille, to tell me that if cutting his pension would help get the country back on it's feet, he'd like to have me cut his pension." -- (Telling a bald-faced lie about an "alleged" letter he received in order to justify further cuts in social programs, November 30, 1981). "Just remember, for every person who is out of work, there are nine of us with jobs." -- 1982 "My name is Ronald Reagan. What's yours?" -- (To his son Michael, when attending his graduation from an Arizona boarding school, pg. 192, President Reagan: The Role of a Lifetime by Lou Cannon). "Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?" -- 1980 "I know all the bad things that happened in that war. I was in uniform four years myself." -- (In an interview with foreign journalists, April 19, 1985. Reality Check: Reagan spent World War II making Army training films at Hal Roach Studios in Hollywood.) "We were told four years ago that 17 million people went to bed hungry every night. Well, that was probably true. They were all on a diet." -- 1964 And a few words from others....... "He knows less about the budget than any president in my lifetime. He can't even carry on a conversation about the budget. It's an absolute and utter disgrace." -- (House Speaker Tip O'Neill after a meeting with Ronnie, November 23, 1980). "He only works three to three and a half hours a day. He doesn't do his homework. He doesn't read his briefing papers. It's sinful that this man is President of the United States." -- (Tip O'Neill exasperated after meeting with Ronnie, October 31, 1983). "God, he's a bore. And a bad actor. Besides, he has a low order of intelligence, with a certain cunning. And not animal cunning, Human cunning. Animal cunning is too fine an expression for him. He's inflated, he's egotistical -- he's one of those people who thinks he is right, and he's not right. He's not right about anything." -- (Movie director John Huston, after a meeting with Ronnie). "What do you do when your President ignores all the palpable, relevant facts and wanders in circles?" -- (David Stockman, ex- Reagan Cabinet member, explaining what briefings with Ronnie were like, April 12, 1986). "His answers to any questions about young men being killed for some vague and perhaps non-existent reason in Central America has been to smile, nod, wave a hand and walk on. And America applauds, thus proving that senility is a communicable disease." -- (Columnist Jimmy Breslin explaining Ronnie's ability to "get away with it"). "The frustration of dealing with a situation in which the schedule of the President of the United States was determined by occult prognostications was very great--far greater than any other I had known in nearly forty-five years of working life." -- (Donald Regan, For the Record: From Wall Street to Washington). "Poor dear, there's nothing between his ears." -- (British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher).

	11-05-2005 09:35									#63
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Zomibge regan can fukc himslef. **** hismellf. i tell you.. youl.. uou.

	11-05-2005 09:59									#64
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quote: Nancy or Margaret

Perkins.

quote: Ah yes "democratically elected". Like Castro and other dictatorial strongmen are, right? Royo was a figurehead President who was a follower of Torrijos. Torrijos, however, stayed head of the National Guard, which held the power in the country. Torrijos was also responsible for numerous human rights violations, so he wasn't some good guy as you are trying to portray him. And I'd trust Noriega's associate over some guy who was not involved saying "look at me!"

bullshit, show me a source where Torrijos committed crimes. the only crimes being committed was by members of the School of the Americas, which Torrijos tried to have closed down, but which the US resisted. The school of the Americas was were the US army trained right wing paramilitaries in torture, guerrilla warfare, survival techniques and brutality. why would you trust noriegas man? noriega owed his position to the CIA/ america. he is therefore unreliable.

quote: Actually, Lawrence, Carter, to his credit, began the support of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.

actually, thats to carters discredit. reagan ramped it up like no other, especially with a guy called Osama bin Laden, our main man in the mujaheddin, who ended up benefiting when we taught many of the guys around him how to be terrorists.

	11-05-2005 10:00									#65
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"
And Carter actually started the Afghan thing."

Right, but it intensified under Reagan.

	11-05-2005 10:05									#66
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quote: - Turned the heat on in Cold War, but ended up with a victory, against evil empire.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Reagan said it was possible to win a nuclear war and even joked once to reporters that he'd started one. TeH Reagan was a dispensationalist, and at that time, one of their beliefs was that the U.S. was God's instrument on Earth to destroy the atheist USSR and bring about Armeggedon. Fortunately for humanity, the Soviets surrendered instead.

The biggest reason I hate Reagan currently is that some still think that "he was the man who won the cold war".

	11-05-2005 10:09									#67
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Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviets in 1979, they were running a puppet regime. Of course Reagan wanted to support the partisans who fought against the communists. At the time, it wasn't just a trivial matter, far from it. Many people thought the Soviets would push on further in order to gain for access to the Indian Ocean. The United States and most of its NATO allies boycotted the 1980 Olympics over the invasion.

	11-05-2005 10:11									#68
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yeah, beacause if that shithole of a country afghanistsan went commie, it meant that international financial markets would collapse, international trade would collapse, and the reds would take power everywhere. same thing for vietnam and korea. three useless wars supported by the US, and now we are paying the price for our idiodicy. many have already paid the ultimate price.

	11-05-2005 10:19									#69
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quote: his election had nothing to do with Reagan

You keep trying to tell yourself that.

quote: show me a source where Torrijos committed crimes.

http://www.cidh.oas.org/countryrep/Panama78eng/TOC.htm

When che and I agree on something, it's time to re-evaluate your opposition.

quote: Why would you trust noriegas man? noriega owed his position to the CIA/ america. he is therefore unreliable.

Yeah, Noriega owed his position to the CIA. I didn't know that Torrijos was put in place CIA and they told him to put Noriega in such a position of power.

	11-05-2005 10:23									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia yeah, beacause if that shithole of a country afghanistsan went commie, it meant that international financial markets would collapse, international trade would collapse, and the reds would take power everywhere. same thing for vietnam and korea. three useless wars supported by the US, and now we are paying the price for our idiodicy. many have already paid the ultimate price.

The war in Afghanistan placed huge finanical strains upon the Soviet Union.

	11-05-2005 10:40									#71
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quote: When che and I agree on something, it's time to re-evaluate your opposition.

did you even read this report? its peanuts. it lists only 14 cases where there is a possibility of human rights abuses by the government. no institutional torture in jails. theres like two substantiated charges by political prisoners with regard to torture.

even the conclusion doesnt even mention 'human rights abuses.' nothing compared to say, Pinochet in Chile, an american protege.

quote: Yeah, Noriega owed his position to the CIA. I didn't know that Torrijos was put in place CIA and they told him to put Noriega in such a position of power.

torrijos was killed by the CIA. noriega inherited the throne when torrijos went down in flames for resisting reagan. him and his flunkies were in power because the CIA took out a democratic leader.

	11-05-2005 10:41									#72
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quote: The war in Afghanistan placed huge finanical strains upon the Soviet Union.

yeah, and now its come back to bite us. has anyone noticed that the more we **** with everyone, the more it comes to bite us in the ass?

	11-05-2005 10:44									#73
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btw, do you know how many human rights abuses it would have found in america today? first of all it would have questioned the 2000 election, especially in florida. it would have questioned our jail system were suspected gang members can be kept locked up indefinitely, or guantanamo bay, or the patriot act, and jose padilla, and the beating of minorities by white cops.

	11-05-2005 10:52									#74
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quote: nothing compared to say, Pinochet in Chile, an american protege.

So if it isn't Pinochet, he's alright?! Why don't you ask Father Hector Gallegos? Oh wait, you can't. Torrijos's regime kidnapped him and he was never heard from again. Interesting that he was part of the political opposition.

But since it isn't as much as Pinochet, it's ok.

And the fact that they used torture in their prisons? Nah, wasn't as much as Pinochet. Of course since there weren't as many people alledging torture it never happened, even though the report says it did!

Fair trials? Nope. But since it ain't as bad as Pinochet, let's forget about it!

Let's look at the report's conclusion:

quote: In the first period (1968-1972) the Government of Panama exercised its powers in a very arbitrary fashion, resulting in serious violations of basic human rights. Political activity was practically suppressed by the severe military regime. In the second period (1972-1977), the regime adopted a political-juridical structure consecrated in the Constitution of 1972. Insofar as the situation of human rights, there was an evident improvement, although the following types of violations were noted: 1) the expatriation of Panamanian citizens for political reasons, in clear violation of the constitutional norms; 2) restrictions on the freedoms of assembly, expression and association, especially with regard to politics; and 3) interference in the judicial process by government officials. There has not been effective protection in the above cases because of the existence of important factors that seriously affect the independence of the judicial power, with consequent, negative effects on the freedoms and guarantees related to the due process of law.

quote: torrijos was killed by the CIA.

You keep telling yourself that because some flunky with no power wrote a book pumping himself up.

	11-05-2005 12:19									#75
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quote: So if it isn't Pinochet, he's alright?! Why don't you ask Father Hector Gallegos? Oh wait, you can't. Torrijos's regime kidnapped him and he was never heard from again. Interesting that he was part of the political opposition.

so one human rights violation is enough to condemn the leader as a mass murderer and mass human rights violator? why dont you try growing up and getting out into places were the lines arnt so clear. its easy for you to sit in the US and condemn everything, but out there in the wild, its a little more gray. the stuff alleged in this report is PEANUTS compared to the average. in fact its so little that its hillarious that you would bring torrijos as an example of a human rights abuser.

and yeah, lets look at the conclusion. do you see anywhere "mass murdereing of political opponents" or "mass graves" or "institutionalized torture?" nope, because you are making a storm out of nothing. did you bother to read the appendix?

quote: According to the chapter on conclusions, the report intends to reflect the status of rights in Panama up to June 1, 1978. Without analyzing at this time whether that purpose is fully accomplished, and refraining from examining specific aspects of the report, we believe that to close it at that date would not give a suitable impression of the Panamanian situation. From June until the present date, basic changes have occurred which, in our opinion, should be included in the report. These changes which, in o7ur opinion, should be included in the report. These changes are of such importance that they cannot be left aside. The report, if published in its present version, would reflect some situations that no longer exist. For example, on last October 25 the National Assembly of Municipal Representatives approved an Act amending the Constitution of Panama. This act amends Articles 41, 129, 140, 141, 143, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 157, 163, 164, 172, 173, 180, 181, 235, 237, and added Articles 153A and 153B. Next we should like to comment on the content of the constitutional amendments and other significant aspects, which in our opinion, should be taken into account for inclusion in the Commission's report.

quite convenient to end the report right before elections were held.

quote: You keep telling yourself that because some flunky with no power wrote a book pumping himself up.

until you a) read the book and b) come up with a source not compromised as I have shown with your last guy, you have no choice but to accept Perkins' statements. you are swalling the US oil multinationals PR hook and sinker. how does it feel to get used so thoroughly?

	11-05-2005 12:32									#76
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quote: the stuff alleged in this report is PEANUTS compared to the average.

Translation: Since it ain't as much as Pinochet he's a good guy.

quote: quite convenient to end the report right before elections were held.

Hey, so if Stalin decided to turn the country to 'elections' right before he died, he'd be alright? In the first few years of his administration, Torrijos was said to have committed "serious violations of basic human rights". That ain't good enough for you?

quote: lets look at the conclusion. do you see anywhere "mass murdereing of political opponents" or "mass graves" or "institutionalized torture?" nope, because you are making a storm out of nothing.

"resulting in serious violations of basic human rights."

quote: until you a) read the book and b) come up with a source not compromised as I have shown with your last guy, you have no choice but to accept Perkins' statements.

Why should I accept the statement of guy who I have no verification know jack or ****? I'd probably be better off listening to DanS. No evidence this Perkins idiot knows more than he does.

quote: how does it feel to get used so thoroughly?

How does it feel to fall for leftist propaganda so easily? You are a Stalinist's dream. You read one book and fell for it hook, line, and sinker without even questioning any bit of it.

	11-05-2005 12:38									#77
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quote: Translation: Since it ain't as much as Pinochet he's a good guy.

again, like i said, what he did was peanuts compared to the average of all third world country leaders. in fact, if you look at that time period of 9 years, and compare it to a 9 year span in the US, you will find many instances where the US has more human rights abuses in those 9 years then in panama.

quote: Hey, so if Stalin decided to turn the country to 'elections' right before he died, he'd be alright? In the first few years of his administration, Torrijos was said to have committed "serious violations of basic human rights". That ain't good enough for you?

bad analogy - torrijos did not kill and imprison millions.

quote: "resulting in serious violations of basic human rights."

no matter how you turn it around, you cant get away from the fact that

quote: lets look at the conclusion. do you see anywhere "mass murdereing of political opponents" or "mass graves" or "institutionalized torture?" nope, because you are making a storm out of nothing.

quote: Why should I accept the statement of guy who I have no verification know jack or ****? I'd probably be better off listening to DanS. No evidence this Perkins idiot knows more than he does.

just because YOU dont know about him does not mean he is wrong or uninformed.

quote: How does it feel to fall for leftist propaganda so easily? You are a Stalinist's dream.

too bad i have a problem with authority.
you on the other hand is what the new american empire is being built on - the ignorance of the finer points of international relations, and the hope that with enough PR by the US companies, you will buy their point of view or get you to ignore it all together. they've been pretty succesful since there hasnt been an outcry in America.

	11-05-2005 12:49									#78
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quote: bad analogy

"resulting in serious violations of basic human rights."

And that is from the OAS, not an organization with an adverse agenda here.

The amount of violation may not be numerically the same, but serious human rights violations existed, with numerous political opponents 'dissapearing'.

Like I said before, as long as he's not Pinochet, it's ok. As long as there is not 'mass' murder, or 'mass' graves, it's ok. As long as the political oppression, torture, and murder is not on such a mass level, it's alright.

Hell, if Bush started eliminating 20-30 Democratic leaders and torturing a few more. No biggie! He didn't engage in mass murder or mass graves or institutionalized torture! It's fine!

quote: just because YOU dont know about him does not mean he is wrong or uninformed.

From Publisher's Weekly:

quote: Perkins spent the 1970s working as an economic planner for an international consulting firm, a job that took him to exotic locales like Indonesia and Panama, helping wealthy corporations exploit developing nations as, he claims, a not entirely unwitting front for the National Security Agency. He says he was trained early in his career by a glamorous older woman as one of many "economic hit men" advancing the cause of corporate hegemony. He also says he has wanted to tell his story for the last two decades, but his shadowy masters have either bought him off or threatened him until now. The story as presented is implausible to say the least, offering so few details that Perkins often seems paranoid, and the simplistic political analysis doesn’t enhance his credibility. Despite the claim that his work left him wracked with guilt, the artless prose is emotionally flat and generally comes across as a personal crisis of conscience blown up to monstrous proportions, casting Perkins as a victim not only of his own neuroses over class and money but of dark forces beyond his control. His claim to have assisted the House of Saud in strengthening its ties to American power brokers may be timely enough to attract some attention, but the yarn he spins is ultimately unconvincing, except perhaps to conspiracy buffs.

And you fell for it, hook, line, and sinker!

	11-05-2005 12:55									#79
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quote: "resulting in serious violations of basic human rights." And that is from the OAS, not an organization with an adverse agenda here. The amount of violation may not be numerically the same, but serious human rights violations existed, with numerous political opponents 'dissapearing'.

right, a whole what, 14 political opponents disappeared? over a 9 year span? just over one a year? gimme a break.

quote: Like I said before, as long as he's not Pinochet, it's ok. As long as there is not 'mass' murder, or 'mass' graves, it's ok. As long as the political oppression, torture, and murder is not on such a mass level, it's alright.

you see, the people of Chile hated pinochet (the majority) the majority of Panama not only loves Torrios, but its politicans strive to be compared to torrijos. seems to me that there were not massive human rights violations, and the report agrees.

quote: Hell, if Bush started eliminating 20-30 Democratic leaders and torturing a few more. No biggie! He didn't engage in mass murder or mass graves or institutionalized torture! It's fine!

there you go again, comparing a 1st world industrialized country to a 3rd world shithole. do you really think thats a good comparison, to say that if it happens in america its just as bad as if it happens out there?

quote: And you fell for it, hook, line, and sinker!

thats your evidence? a book review? i can find many that praise the book and you know it. until you read it yourself, and draw your own conclusions, you cannot say anything about Perkins credibility.

	11-05-2005 13:01									#80
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check out his website, www.johnperkins.org on 'about the author' at the bottom. his daughter is pretty hot

	11-05-2005 13:10									#81
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quote: right, a whole what, 14 political opponents disappeared? over a 9 year span? just over one a year? gimme a break.

"resulting in serious violations of basic human rights."

You think that is a phrase just tossed around?

quote: the majority of Panama not only loves Torrios, but its politicans strive to be compared to torrijos. seems to me that there were not massive human rights violations

The majority of the population of Cuba love Castro! The majority of the population of Palestine love Hamas! That HAS to mean there weren't human rights violations!

quote: there you go again, comparing a 1st world industrialized country to a 3rd world shithole. do you really think thats a good comparison, to say that if it happens in america its just as bad as if it happens out there?

Um... YEAH! Its because you give 3rd world countries a pass that bastards like Torrijos can get away with silencing political opposition.

quote: thats your evidence? a book review? i can find many that praise the book and you know it. until you read it yourself, and draw your own conclusions, you cannot say anything about Perkins credibility.

I can say stuff about his credibility and will continue to call him a hack. You advanced him as the source. It is YOUR job to prove his reliability. I ain't going to take his words as the gospel on YOUR word.

I don't believe a word out of his mouth unless you can show me proof as to his reliability as a source.

And you didn't even take it with a grain of salt! That's the best part!

	11-05-2005 13:17									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia teh Reagan one of the worst presidents in the history of the US. when he was done screwing the united states over we were morally and financially bankrupt. Reagan did such great things as: -slap tariffs on Korea and Bangladesh over textiles, even though he was a free trader -sent marines to lebanon with no clear mission. 200 of them got blown up intheir beds -****ed around in iran, nicaragua, panama, ecuador and presided over a CIA who killed off democractically elected officials in some of these countries -spent billions on star wars - a defense system that makes america less safe and 20 years later we still dont have a working system -got us invovled in afghanistan, and now its come back to bite us in the ass (see Osama) -got us invovled with Saddam, and now its come back to bite us in the ass (see Saddam) -single handedly created the problem we have now - terrorism.

Wow. You really are delusional. I'm not even a Reagan fan, but the vast majority of your charges are right out of "Conspiracy a-go-go". You don't have a problem with authority, you are simply and seriously paranoid. Things are bad enough in the real world without you making a mockery of the very real mistakes and malfeasance of the Reagan administration. This thread needs a sign that states:

You must be this sane to post on this thread

	11-05-2005 13:21									#83
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quote: "resulting in serious violations of basic human rights." You think that is a phrase just tossed around?

yeah it is when the report makes no relative comparisons to other 3rd world countries.

quote: The majority of the population of Cuba love Castro! The majority of the population of Palestine love Hamas! That HAS to mean there weren't human rights violations!

thats a lie. you have no source for that. meanwhile, i do have a source for my statement of people loving torrijos. comes from the US congress library.

quote: From 1968 until his death in an airplane crash in 1981, General Torrijos dominated the Panamanian political scene. His influence, greater than that of any individual in the nation's history, did not end with his death. Since 1981, both military and civilian leaders have sought to wrap themselves in the mantle of Torrijismo, claiming to be the true heirs of the general's political and social heritage. As of the late 1980s, none had been particularly successful in this effort.

quote: Um... YEAH! Its because you give 3rd world countries a pass that bastards like Torrijos can get away with silencing political opposition.

again, grow up. torrijos was a fly on the wall compared to others. if you go barking up that tree its because you have no idea how bad it gets out there. you dont reproach torrijos for being a human rights violator because he was one of the least 'violators' of them all.

quote: I can say stuff about his credibility and will continue to call him a hack. You advanced him as the source. It is YOUR job to prove his reliability. I ain't going to take his words as the gospel on YOUR word.

what sort of crap is that? ive given a source, you need to either accept it or refute it, neither of which you have done at this time. it does not work the other way around, as much as it is the easy way out for you.

quote: And you didn't even take it with a grain of salt! That's the best part!

aaaah, the assumption on your part. you dont think i struggled with this book? do you know how hard it was for me to finish it? do you know how many times i wanted to just put it down because it seemed so out there? well im glad i didnt because he wraps it up very nicely at the end. you see, i like patterns, and he showed me one, a disturbing one, that lends a lot of weight to his claims in the book. a pattern repeated again and again

	11-05-2005 13:27									#84
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quote: yeah it is when the report makes no relative comparisons to other 3rd world countries.

It's from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights for ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES! I think they've dealt with other 3rd world Central American countries' human rights abuses

quote: thats a lie. you have no source for that.

Open your eyes and look. Palestinians love Hamas, Cubans love Castro. They celebrate them in the streets. You want to say they are deluded? Go ahead. Being popular doesn't mean you are not guilty of the crimes you are accused!

quote: torrijos was a fly on the wall compared to others.

Ah, so if you aren't as bad as the worst violators, that's ok. Jailing and torturing political dissidents? That's ok, because he didn't do it as much as tohers.

quote: what sort of crap is that? ive given a source, you need to either accept it or refute it

No I don't. You have to prove your source is worth ****. What if I gave you a Rush Limbaugh book in response? What would be your response to that? Would you run out to read it so you may be able to 'refute it'?

Give me proof that his novelization is the truth. The burden is on you. Anyone can offer some BS book. I don't accept it.

That's how it works. The person offering the source has to provide the proof that it's a valid source.

Someone like Fez says his dad was an ambassador and this is what he said happened. Do you just accept it? Wouldn't you like to have some proof on the source? Man, you must be incredibly naive.


Like Sikander said, stop being paranoid and start getting sane.

	11-05-2005 13:38									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Iraq: US supports Saddams baath party, he allows US companies to do what they want, he gets lots of weapons to fight Iran, but then gets out of control and the US can no longer control him. CIA fails, invasion the first time somewhat works. Saddam still doesnt play ball with the US, we invade again and finish the job.

Name one weapon system (you claim lots of weapons) that the U.S. supplied to Iraq. I was intimately aquainted with the Iraqi order of battle before and during the 1st Gulf War, and they simply didn't have any U.S. weapons systems. The vast majority of their armaments were Soviet with the balance being French.

Our "support" for Iraq extended no further than out desire to see the status quo ante prevail in their war with Iran. We supported whomever we thought needed help to keep them from losing the war over the course of a few years, mostly with intelligence. When that war ended so did our "friendly" relations with Iraq. The greatest crime the U.S. committed was that we didn't condemn Iraq when they used chemical weapons on the Iranians.

We never had any control over Iraq. In fact we barely had any influence over them at all, which was reasonable considering that we were only spoonfeeding them intel that served our purposes and were playing both sides of that conflict and they knew it. We had more hope of restoring at least reasonable relations with Iran at the time for the simple reason that our relations with Iraq had been horrible for decades. They were a Soviet client state during the cold war (hence their Soviet arsenal), virulently anti-Israeli, and well-known to support some of the most murderous terrorist groups known to that time. The only reason that we didn't want to see Saddam fall immediately was that we didn't want to risk the Iranians moving into the power vacuum that would have been created. The only reason that we fought the first gulf war was that we weren't going to allow Saddam to sit on 30+% of the worlds proven reserves with his sword at the throat of weaker states who controlled another 30%. Note that even then we did not overthrow his regime.

	11-05-2005 13:38									#86
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quote: It's from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights for ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES! I think they've dealt with other 3rd world Central American countries' human rights abuses

again, on this report, there is no indication on the relative condition of torrijos 'human right abuses' to other 3rd world leaders.

quote: Open your eyes and look. Palestinians love Hamas, Cubans love Castro. They celebrate them in the streets. You want to say they are deluded? Go ahead. Being popular doesn't mean you are not guilty of the crimes you are accused!

hamas is a terrorist organization, not the head of any country. if cubans love castro so much why are they hitching rides on anything that can float to get to the US? being popular means you havnt committed massive 'human rights violations'

on a side note, i am unfamiliar with what castro has done with regard to human rights. do you have any sources?

quote: Ah, so if you aren't as bad as the worst violators, that's ok. Jailing and torturing political dissidents? That's ok, because he didn't do it as much as tohers. [/quote[ again, you are lawyering up the situation. i never said that. i said that he is the one of the least abusing leaders in third world countries. that has nothing to do with 'not as bad as the worst violators' in fact its the complete opposite. when you are among the least, its ok. thats right. its called a gray area. theres a different bar for 3rd world countries. [quote] No I don't. You have to prove your source is worth ****. What if I gave you a Rush Limbaugh book in response? What would be your response to that? Would you run out to read it so you may be able to 'refute it'?

go ahead, i dare you, gimee a rush limbaugh book about this and i would tear it to shreds in five minutes. if you cant disprove it, you have to accept it. would i run out and read it? maybe, maybe not. but i could also find another reputable source, or attack his backround, and use that to refute it.

quote: Give me proof that his novelization is the truth. The burden is on you. Anyone can offer some BS book. I don't accept it. That's how it works. The person offering the source has to provide the proof that it's a valid source.

im not gonna do your work for me. you either disprove it, or you accept it.

quote: Wow. You really are delusional. I'm not even a Reagan fan, but the vast majority of your charges are right out of "Conspiracy a-go-go". You don't have a problem with authority, you are simply and seriously paranoid. Things are bad enough in the real world without you making a mockery of the very real mistakes and malfeasance of the Reagan administration. This thread needs a sign that states:

unfortunately, sikander hasnt provided any evidence; he is only disagreeing.

	11-05-2005 13:40									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We didn't train him specifically, but we did train many of his followers and co-thinkers.

We did precious little training of anyone, save for the relatively few Stinger AA missle operators. Pakistan did the lion's share of the training, Saudi Arabia did the lion's share of the foreign fighter recruiting and we supplied money, coordination and intelligence.

	11-05-2005 13:48									#88
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Reagan said it was possible to win a nuclear war and even joked once to reporters that he'd started one. TeH Reagan was a dispensationalist, and at that time, one of their beliefs was that the U.S. was God's instrument on Earth to destroy the atheist USSR and bring about Armeggedon. Fortunately for humanity, the Soviets surrendered instead.

Yes, Pharaoh eventually gave in as well. They all do.

	11-05-2005 13:50									#89
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Name one weapon system (you claim lots of weapons) that the U.S. supplied to Iraq. I was intimately aquainted with the Iraqi order of battle before and during the 1st Gulf War, and they simply didn't have any U.S. weapons systems. The vast majority of their armaments were Soviet with the balance being French.

well, heres the link http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/time.html

and heres the juicy bit

quote: The main facts are no longer in dispute. In violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 (which outlaws chemical warfare), the Reagan-Bush administration authorized the sale of poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, from anthrax to bubonic plague, throughout the '80s. In 1982, while Saddam Hussein constructed his machinery of war, Reagan and Bush removed Iraq from the State Department list of terrorist states.

also

quote: Subsequently, the Pentagon supplied logistical and military support; U.S. banks provided billions of dollars in credits; and the C.I.A., using a Chilean conduit, increased Saddam's supply of cluster bombs. U.S. companies also supplied steel tubes and chemical substances, the types of material for which the Security Council is now searching.

that last line is the best

	11-05-2005 13:51									#90
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i dont seem so crazy anymore do i?