18-05-2005 15:39									#61
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I think that would be good. I've decided in the end to use impassable neutral terrain, but only for Portugal, Switzerland, Ireland, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Persia, and Afghanistan. Countries taken by the Axis powers before aggression with the Allies (the Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Danzig, Albania, and Abyssinia) will be barbarians, as will Spanish Republicans and (much later) Tito's Yugoslavian partisans. Minor allies (Poland, the Low Countries, Norway, Denmark, Greece, and Yugoslavia) will be controlled by the British. Question is, who should start with the minor Axis (Finland, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria) and the late-joining Allies (Turkey and certain Latin American countries starting on the map)?

	18-05-2005 17:26									#62
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@ Martin: Thank you for that additional information, I edited the map again a little bit

@ Patine: I started thinking about these issues when I started work on my own - temporary - abandoned World War Two scenario "Axis & Allies ToT". I came to the conclusion that, on a map featuring only Europe & the Middle East the best starting date would be (10) May 1940, with the Western Campaign.

My Concept: (maybe it can help you too)

* Starting Date: 10 May 1940, start of the western war;

* Neutral Nations during the whole war are to be blanked out, no access possible: this means Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland;

* Certain trigger events make the Minor Axis civ take control of Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland; (the best would be non-moveable units in those cities); the idea is to make those countries part of the neutral civ first;

* Certain trigger events make Yugoslavia and Greece side with the still-fighting Britain;

Strike Order:

(1) Third Reich (Romans) - Greater Germany, Slovakia, occupied Poland, Denmark, Norway;

(2) Neutral Nations (Babylonians) - Hungary*, Romania*, Bulgaria*, Finland*, Yugoslavia*, Greece*; Turkey*, Saudi-Arabia*;

(3) Vichy France (French) - Vichy France, French Northern Africa, Syria, Lebanon;

(4) Italy (Spanish) - Italy, occupied Albania, Lybia & the Cyrenaika, Abessinia;

(5) Soviet Union (Americans) - USSR, occupied Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania;

(6) United Kingdom (English) - British Empire, Free French*, United States of America*;

(7) Western Allies (Indians) - France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg; Greece*, Yugoslavia*; Persia*; Turkey*, Saudi-Arabia*;

(8) Minor Axis/Pro-German Nations (Barbarians) - Hungary*, Romania*, Bulgaria*, Finland*

Sidenotes:

As this is the actual concept for my own WW2 scenario I am offering it as basis for a debate and/or some kind of inspiration for your personal use, Patrick. Since I intend to finish this scenario one fine day I hope my own ideas will be repected - until I either finish it or abandon it permanently.

I do think you could go for the starting date of early 1938, before the annexation of Austria with basically the same civs. As the game evolves, you could make the respective civs simply "take-over" the neutral cities.

This worth some consideration?

	18-05-2005 17:26									#63
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Forgot to attach the map

Attachment: 3rdreich.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	18-05-2005 17:50									#64
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I think ultimately I'll go with this set of players:
-1-USSR
-2-Italy
-3-Germany (including Finland, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria)
-4-Spain (Nationalists)
-5-USA (including Liberia and Latin American nations)
-6-British Empire (including Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Low Countries, Yugoslavia, and Greece)
-7)France
-Barbarians-Spanish Republicans, the Rhineland, Danzig, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Albania, Abyssinia, and initially Turkey
-Nations covered by impassable terrain-Portugal, Andorra, Switzerland, Ireland, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Persia, and Afghanistan.
It would begin in February 1933, and a house rule would forbid Germany (who's meant to be the active player) from building of anything but freight, an immobile garrison, or city improvements in Minor Axis countries until early '41. Turkey would join the British via events to take their cities in early '45, and their borders would be well protected by immobile defensive units that would be destroyed by terrain changes (to the same terrain) that turn.

	18-05-2005 17:59									#65
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Oh, one note I neglected; Tito's Yugoslavian partisans, appearing in '45, would also be barbarians, but I agree with you in making the Free French British.

	18-05-2005 18:20									#66
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Actually, I just had an inspiration for a better idea to handle the situation. I had planned in the future to do an 'Origins of World War II' scen meant for multiplayer or PBEM play running from Feb '33 to Apr '40 that explored the full diplomatic and political scope of the era (I got some cool flags for that idea from Chris on the 'Flag Requests Thread'). I think I may well separate the situation (in theory, anyhow) into that idea and the one featured in this thread, which will start in May '40. It will thus feature the following civ's:
-1-USSR
-2-Italy
-3-Germany (including Finland, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria)
-4-Spain
-5-USA (including Liberia and Latin American nations)
-6-British Empire (including Norway, the Low Countries, Yugoslavia, and Greece, as well as the Free French)
-7)France
-Barbarians-Tito's partisans and initially Turkey.
-Nations covered by impassable terrain-Portugal, Andorra, Switzerland, Ireland, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Persia, and Afghanistan.
Same idea applies for incorporating Turkey into the British player.

	18-05-2005 20:09									#67
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I've currently got most of the units I need. The ones I still need, as it stands, are as follows:
-He-111
-1 more good German aircraft (I've got the Me-109, Fw-190, Ju-87, Ju-88, and Me-262; I need a good suggestion)
-Soviet Cossack Cavalry
-Turkish Border Guard (for above idea)
-Tito's Yugoslavian Partisan
I'll also need someone to 'tidy-up' the units.bmp.
@fairline: Not meaning to rush, but I do also still need that Devastator and Helldiver for 'Empire of the Rising Sun,' which I plan to finish before doing anything but gathering ideas and graphics for this scen.
Anyone who can help me will be honored as my hero. Thanks in advance!

	18-05-2005 20:17									#68
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Sorry to be a pest, but there's two needed units I've forgotten (I don't know how). They are:
-B-17
-Vicker Wellington
I know I ask a lot, but I just want top quality scenarios to share, and have no graphics making skills. If someone could bear with me and make me (or dig up) these units for ToT, I'd be much obliged. Thanks again!

	18-05-2005 20:46									#69
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All these units are to find in the cdg graphical threads, fairline's very own forum over there, and they can also bee found in almost all ww2 scenarios.

	18-05-2005 20:59									#70
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the turkish border guard may be a wee bit tricky to find,
oh and eivind, you got rid of your war president avatar

	18-05-2005 21:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Patine Sorry to be a pest, but there's two needed units I've forgotten (I don't know how). They are: -B-17 -Vicker Wellington I know I ask a lot, but I just want top quality scenarios to share, and have no graphics making skills. If someone could bear with me and make me (or dig up) these units for ToT, I'd be much obliged. Thanks again!

Patine, there was a B-17 on the set of units I posted on only the previous page, at your request

	18-05-2005 21:20									#72
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Oh, and having the Turks and Spanish is surely a bad idea: firstly their units will attack everybody and secondly I can't conceive of a set of circumstances under which either the Allies or, even less so, the Axis would invade Spain.

	18-05-2005 21:32									#73
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Oh, and having the Turks and Spanish is surely a bad idea: firstly their units will attack everybody and secondly I can't conceive of a set of circumstances under which either the Allies or, even less so, the Axis would invade Spain.

yea, but the spanish civil war,
i don't know about the turks, perhaps like the original ww2 scenario that came with civ2
i've played as both the spanish and the turks in that scen, both time i died horribly,

	18-05-2005 22:07									#74
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@fairline: Is there a B-17 on that file? Which one is it? And, you're probably right about the Spanish and Turks, ultimately. I should just make them impassable neutrals. Who, then should be the seventh player? Any suggestions?

	18-05-2005 22:17									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Broken_Erika yea, but the spanish civil war, i don't know about the turks, perhaps like the original ww2 scenario that came with civ2 i've played as both the spanish and the turks in that scen, both time i died horribly,

If Spain is a barb nation then every single AI civ will attack it until it's cities are taken over. Hardly appropriate for a WW2 scenario, don't you think?

@Patine: Are the units that bad?

It's the very last unit - the silver four-engined bomber.

	18-05-2005 22:39									#76
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quote: @Patine: Are the units that bad?

No, my eyes, not your artistry, are at fault?

	18-05-2005 23:29									#77
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Come to think of it, two aircraft I might like to include, which are speculative as far as being involved in WW2, at least, are, if the war drags on longer than it historically did and the Germans make better tactical and impunitive use of Me-262's, are the M50 (for the British) and the X-1 (for the Americans), introduced in such a case earlier than they actually were to level the playing field in the air. If anyone's up to making them, or has any ideas on this thought, please let me know. Thanks!

	18-05-2005 23:45									#78
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There's no British plane I've ever heard of called an M50, and the X-1 was a test aircraft. If you want advanced / 'speculative' fighters then you want an the P-59 Airacomet for the US (their first jet fighter) and a Meteor for the British (the only Allied jet aircraft to take part in the War).

	19-05-2005 00:02									#79
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The X-1 is just a test plane, eh? I think the M50 might be too (and maybe an unsuccesful one, hence you've never heard of it). I was watching a documentary on the history of the jet engine in warfare, and the two I mentioned were brought up, but someone in the house changed the channel (I shouldn't base posts on half-watched documentaries, I know). I think, though, a P-59 and a Meteor would do just nicely. I offer humble thanks in advance if you or anyone else can make these jets for me!

	19-05-2005 08:03									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Patine It will thus feature the following civ's: -1-USSR -2-Italy -3-Germany (including Finland, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria) -4-Spain -5-USA (including Liberia and Latin American nations) -6-British Empire (including Norway, the Low Countries, Yugoslavia, and Greece, as well as the Free French) -7)France -Barbarians-Tito's partisans and initially Turkey. -Nations covered by impassable terrain-Portugal, Andorra, Switzerland, Ireland, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Persia, and Afghanistan. Same idea applies for incorporating Turkey into the British player.

What exactly is impassable terrain units? I thought you could only have impassable terrain when there were no aircraft?

	19-05-2005 16:00									#81
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ToT (which I assume this scenario is for) can have impassible flags
added to terrain and a flag that covers what units are affected by it.

	19-05-2005 23:53									#82
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Btw Patine, I'm glad you choosed to have the scenario start earlier than 1940, it really makes the scenario title work

	20-05-2005 00:32									#83
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It would be great to start with Germany being underpowered,
with the 100,000 man army, then have a builidng/development game,
where you create the familiar WW2 European superpower.

	20-05-2005 07:15									#84
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Okay, here's the set of players I now have in mind:
1-USSR
2-Pro-German States (Italy, Finland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and, initially, Nationalist Spain)
3-Germany (Player civilization)
4-'Contested' Powers (Poland, Baltic States, Albania, Abyssinia, Norway, Denmark, and Republican Spain)
5-USA (including Liberia and Latin American Allies)
6-British Empire (including Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Yugoslavia, Iceland, and the Free French, Polish, Norweigans, and Danish)
7-France
Barbarians-Demilitarized States (the Rhineland, Danzig, Austria, and Czechoslakia) and Tito's Partisans
Neutral Terrain Covered-Portugal, Switzerland, Ireland, Sweden, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Persia, and Afghanistan
This is about how it currently stands. Does anyone have any thoughts, advice, or criticism?

	20-05-2005 16:29									#85
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I don't get it...you have Poland, Norway etc in the 'contested' civ, but then again in the British Empire civ? Other than that, things seem to make sense.

When have you decided to start btw?

	20-05-2005 16:43									#86
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I would make Norway and Poland as part of the pro-Brit group.

	20-05-2005 23:00									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Eivind IV Hey! Norways's not beaten yet! Allied forces are still fighting as best they can in Northern Norway

It's true : the iron road from Sweden was broken at Narvik and Namsos... untill the battle of France.
(my father was in french alpine troops fighting in Norway)

	20-05-2005 23:00									#88
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@Eivind IV: Where you may have misunderstood is Poland, Norway, and Denmark as civ's previous to conquest are 'contested,' but FREE Polish, Norweigans, and Danish (notice those nationalities follow Free French and are listed as adjectives, not country nouns) are under the British. That's what I meant.
@Curt: However, Curt, you may have a point. I'll have to carefully consider actual distribution in the end.

	20-05-2005 23:43									#89
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The meagre amount of civs we have to juggle can be restrictive...

	21-05-2005 03:37									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Patine @Eivind IV: Where you may have misunderstood is Poland, Norway, and Denmark as civ's previous to conquest are 'contested,' but FREE Polish, Norweigans, and Danish (notice those nationalities follow Free French and are listed as adjectives, not country nouns) are under the British. That's what I meant. @Curt: However, Curt, you may have a point. I'll have to carefully consider actual distribution in the end.

Ok, I get it. As much as having seperate Norwegian, Danish, Polish etc troops would add flavour and honour their efforts, it might be good enough with a single free french infantry though, to represent all the occupied free troops. Just a thought to save some space.

You didn't answer my second questiom though ; What year have you decided to start in?

quote: Originally posted by JCP It's true : the iron road from Sweden was broken at Narvik and Namsos... untill the battle of France. (my father was in french alpine troops fighting in Norway)

My grand father fought at Narvik as well

(I made a scenario in honour of all those who fought in that campaign. You should check it out: http://www.evo-games.net/Home/viewtopic.php?t=65 )