24-05-2005 16:21									#1
	World War I in Europe - tracker Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Here we go, gentlemen, let the fun begin. If you care, the sign up thread is here (link).

The scenario requires a download of approximately 14 MB, which can be found on this site (link), and needs to be decompressed into the Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios folder. It has some new units, mainly for flavour (slightly different planes, tanks, etc.—similar to the flavour units in the Napoleonic Conquest). Some countries are missing, and some have more territory incorporated due to the MP limit of 8 players.

Civs, players, and playing order:

• Germany (Modo)
  
• Russia (Trollius IV)
  
• France (Masuro)
  
• Britain (Beta)
  
• Spain (Paddy)
  
• Ottomen (Jon)
  
• Austria-Hungary (Shogun Gunner)
  
• Serbia-Romania-Greece (Ljube)

No forced alliances, no forced wars. The only victory conditions are Domination and Conquest.

No Settlers can be built, so no razing cities, please.

If you are not sure if your predecessor has your e-mail, please PM it to him.

Last edited by Modo44 on 28-05-2005 at 02:21

	24-05-2005 21:25									#2
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Why don't you make the AI Sid?

	24-05-2005 21:43									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Why don't you make the AI Sid?

If all of you feel up to it, sure. I hope you did play scenarios against a Sid AI...

	24-05-2005 21:43									#4
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Since there's apprently one AI on each side; [at least I hope that Austria-Hungary AI won't break the Central Powers alliance ] I do think the AI should be Demigod+.

And why can't we have humans playing France & Austria-Hungary?

	24-05-2005 21:47									#5
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Ljube, I don't think I have your email.

Paddy knows mine.

	24-05-2005 21:50									#6
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Modo, I propose a slight change on your turn 1 rule:

I propose that we be able to sign a straight MPP / MA / RoP on turn 1 with the AI; just no getting cash / cities / luxaries / etc. from it.

	24-05-2005 21:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Since there's apprently one AI on each side; [at least I hope that Austria-Hungary AI won't break the Central Powers alliance ] I do think the AI should be Demigod+.

Except I did not force alliances/wars. Should I? Remember the numbers the AI gets for free are rather enormous, and there is no guarantee they would fight each other instead of humans. This could become silly as we would be stuck defending for a big part of the war. I mean all of us...

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn And why can't we have humans playing France & Austria-Hungary?

Because 6 is good enough for speed. 8 human players would make for a very slow game, and I prefer a faster pace.

Oh, and the tech cost is ridiculous at Sid. We would be stuck at the starting technology throughout the war...

And, as happened in other games, you should post your ideas before the game is started. All of this should be in the sign up threat. Darn you.

	24-05-2005 21:58									#8
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Considering trying to keep the AI historic while providing flexibility to humans:

I think France and Austria-Hungary should be locked against each other.

And Austria-Hungary should also be locked against Serbia. Austria-Hungary's primary goal [which they succeeded in] for the Great War was the annexation of Serbia.

Modo, I was not expecting to find this game already started this morning.

	24-05-2005 22:06									#9
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The problem is, a Sid AI coming at you right from the start means no chance whatsoever. And I have no way to determing if Austria-Hungary will go after France first. I would even suspect it does not, as France (being another Sid AI) would have the much stronger defenses...

Leaving Austria-Hungary locked against France seems doable, though.

By the way, Grandpa Troll, if you are reading this—wait with the save. You will get another one, it seems.

	24-05-2005 22:14									#10
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This a scenario, on turn 1 it makes no difference what the AI difficulty level is. All their units are already in place, there's no additional bonus units. It's as time goes on that the reduced AI prices take affect. Sid would probably amount to something like the AI has accel on and humans don't.

	24-05-2005 22:22									#11
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Under my locked wars rule, I suspect that Austrian Hungary will go after Serbia on turn 1. They probably won't stop doing this until Serbia is dead, since Serbia probably has the weakest army off our civs. (But this IS historic)

The French AI on turn 1 will probably go after Austria-Hungary unless the Germans declare war on them first, in which case the French AI will be after the weakest town between Germany and Austria-Hungary. If Spain ever declares war on France, the French AI will go after them instead. The Ottoman Empire is also something the French AI would like to go after if these powers become at war.

(Now the idea of France trying to actually attack someone in WWI other than the Germans is very non-historic, but I can't think of a way to completely solve this short of having a human play France)

	24-05-2005 22:28									#12
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Modo, I have another idea, I don't think we were aware of the intention of having 2 AIs.

Change the two AIs to Spain and Serbia. And have Paddy and Ljube flip a coin to see who gets France and who gets Austria-Hungary.

In that case, the only thing important for the AI is lock Serbia into an alliance with Russia.

And a human rule of no trying to make peace with Russia via Serbia.

	24-05-2005 22:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Under my locked wars rule, I suspect that Austrian Hungary will go after Serbia on turn 1. They probably won't stop doing this until Serbia is dead, since Serbia probably has the weakest army off our civs. (But this IS historic)

Worry not, we can live without. Like we can live without unified Italy or any Scandinavian civs. This wil happen only if Ljube agrees to start in such a bad position.

	24-05-2005 22:43									#14
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Serbia beat Austria in two great battles in 1914. It wasn't until late 1915 when Germany intervened on Austria's behalf and Bulgaria and Turkey joined on Austria's side that Serbia got on the run. Even then, it took good four months for them to subdue Serbia and her army was largely intact, retreated to Greece, reformed, joined the Brits who fought at Gallipoli, and when the French arrived, staged a counter-attack near the end of 1916. From then on, the front was peaceful with most of Serbian territory occupied by Austria until September 1918 when Serbia-Britain-France achieved a breakthrough and Austria-Bulgarian positions on the Thessalonica front collapsed. Bulgaria capitulated 2 days later, while Austria fought for another month and Hungary kept fighting 3 weeks more.


During the WWI, Serbia was the most militaristic country in Europe having under arms most of its male population.

	24-05-2005 22:55									#15
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Sooo, do I include the forced war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia, or not? Be precise, this time.

Any other suggestions?

I would like to start the game today, because I will be gone tomorrow.

	24-05-2005 22:59									#16
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LOL, I don't like anyone forcing me to do anything.

I'd like the freedom to choose if I may please.


Who knows, maybe I end up allied with Austria.

	24-05-2005 23:09									#17
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Maybe you will. But I would not count on it, as a Sid AI is extremely expensive to bribe into anything.

And Jon, no trading anything to AI on the first turn.

Game will be up (again ) in about two hours.

	24-05-2005 23:15									#18
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I'm pretty sure that Ottoman Empire was a charter member of the Central Powers and did, in name, join the war right away.

Authough they might not have been ready for the war and therefore slow to actually attack anyone. In addition, Greece was a higher priority for the Ottoman Empire since the agreements with Austria-Hungary were that Serbia goes to Austrian-Hungary and Greece goes to the Ottoman Empire.

Austria-Hungary were the same empire until the treaty of Verdue broke them up.

It's also pretty clear that even if the Central Powers have won, they'd have had trouble holding down the subject populations in the balkins. (The German empire wouldn't have that problem directly because they'd have created a Poland as a puppet state themselves, [only their version wouldn't have included those portions of Poland that were taken from Germany and Austria-Hungary.] Athough I can imagine that the Austria-Hungarian empire might have very well called in the Germans to help hold down the Serbians, with the Ottomans turks making the same demand on the Germans to help hold down the Greeks.)

	24-05-2005 23:18									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko LOL, I don't like anyone forcing me to do anything. I'd like the freedom to choose if I may please. Who knows, maybe I end up allied with Austria.

Historically, the Austrian empire would only have accepted peace on turn 1 if they'd been allowed to occupy the country.

	24-05-2005 23:21									#20
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Yes, we need that historic triggering event to get the war started.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Sooo, do I include the forced war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia, or not? Be precise, this time.

	24-05-2005 23:35									#21
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Jon, let me remind you:

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 This wil happen only if Ljube agrees to start in such a bad position.

Ljube said not to include the forced war. End of story.


Sorry, but Civ3 is very bad when you are trying to be historically accurate. WW II could be a bit closer to real life, but that scenario is still lacking. It turns out this one is a historical mess, too. Either you accept it and play what you get, or... Well, I started the game, so I have the final word, so there is no other option, really.

If you want better historical accurancy, go ahead and change the scenario, and then start a game based on your modifications (The Mustard Gas unit needs to have its Civilopedia entry changed, or the scenario will not load.) I will gladly join it as a different nation.

	25-05-2005 00:09									#22
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Well, I'm from Serbia and I know what I'm talking about.


In August 1914 Austria-Hungary attacked Serbia and lost a battle on Cer Mountain in western Serbia. Overconfident Austrians deployed their forces in the narrow valley and exposed to artillery bombardment from Serbian batteries positioned on higher ground. This caused panic among Austrian recruits and they started to run back home. Serbian reserves then started to chase them and Serbia even occupied several Bosnian cities (Visegrad, Sarajevo).

Still, this was but a minor setback for Austria as the forces assigned to the operation were relatively small in numbers compared to what Austria had at her disposal. In November same year Austria-Hungary launched a new offensive against Serbia, this time with overwhelming numbers. They advanced deep into Serbia, captured Belgrade and it seemed as if Serbian army was totally defeated. However, on 3 December 1914 Serbian army launched a counter-offensive along the river Kolubara (hence the name of the battle: Battle of Kolubara), achieved a breakthrough and liberated Serbian cities of Valjevo and Sabac in the western Serbia. Facing encirclement the Austrians retreated. This was the biggest victory of the Serbian army in WWI.



Turkey entered war in late October 1914 on Germany's side. Of course, Turkey was unable to attack Serbia because Bulgaria and Greece were between Serbia and Turkey.


Bulgaria entered war on Germany's side in October 1915. At the same time Germany and Austria launched a big offensive against Sebia. The combined Germany-Austria-Bulgarian forces were 3 times more numerous than Serbian army, so Serbs decided to retreat. Since the direct route toward Greece along the Morava and the Vardar valley was severed by Bulgarians, Serbs retreated through Kosovo, Montenegro and Albania. A heroic battle was fought on Christmas 1916 (7 January 1916) between the army of Montenegro and the army of Austria-Hungary. Austrians had several times more troops than Montenegrins, but their position was poor and they couldn't advance through the narrow gorge in the mountainous region of northern Montenegro. The Montenegrins fought bravely, holding out long enough for the Serbian Army to complete its withdrawal. After that, in February 1916, Montenegro capitulated.


Also, in 1918 after the capitulation of Austria on 3 November 1918, Hungary broke away from Austria and went on with the war on its own. Serbia fought a war with Hungary long after the war in other parts of Europe ended. Hungary signed cease-fire on 23 November 1918. This was due to the Hungarian bid to get a separate armistice and separate peace treaty. They got them all right, but lost 2 thirds of their territory in the process.

Last edited by Ljube on 25-05-2005 at 00:14

	25-05-2005 00:24									#23
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Hum, I didn't know that Hungary broke away from Austria on its own, thought it was a treaty of Verdun thing, like Serbia enlarged to form Yugoslavia.

Next thing you know, someone is going to say that the Baltic Republics had already established their independence from the Russian empire (and the Poles from the section of Poland taken from Russia) before the tretry of Verdun was signed.

	25-05-2005 00:24									#24
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Historically, the Austrian empire would only have accepted peace on turn 1 if they'd been allowed to occupy the country.

Hmm, not entirely true. There was a secret treaty between Austria na Serbia, signed in 1881, called the Secret Convention which defined all aspects of mutual relations and foreign policy of both countries. The treaty was completely secret, i.e. nobody knew of its existence save the highest officials in both countries. The treaty was signed and upheld while Obrenovic Dynasty was in power. However on 29. May 1903 there was a coup in Serbia and a new dynasty came to power (Karadjordjevic Dynasty).

Had there been another coup in Serbia, or a renewal of the treaty, Serbia would have had nothing to worry. After all, Austria didn't want to destroy or occupy Serbia. She merely wanted to bring Serbia back in line.

	25-05-2005 00:27									#25
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Hum, I didn't know that Hungary broke away from Austria on its own, thought it was a treaty of Verdun thing, like Serbia enlarged to form Yugoslavia. Next thing you know, someone is going to say that the Baltic Republics had already established their independence from the Russian empire (and the Poles from the section of Poland taken from Russia) before the tretry of Verdun was signed.

A separate peace treaty was signed with Hungary on 4 June 1920 (Treaty of Trianon).


However, the date of the armistice with Hungary is from my memory, so it may have been a few days earlier or later. The fact is that Hungary was the Central Power to capitulate last in WWI.

	25-05-2005 00:32									#26
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Austria had recently annexed Bosnia-Huz. soon before the war started and that arch duke was in fact there to assert Austrian rule there. It's clear that Austria was expanding South East. Perhaps because the Prussians had beaten the Austrians and unified with those Southern German states which had been under Austrian influence?

For that matter, the intended target wasn't that arch duke but the local governor, and it's clear that the conspiracy did not originate from the Serbian govt dispite the Austrians claimed at the time. Angering Austria was not what the Serbian govt wanted.

	25-05-2005 00:52									#27
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The conspiracy didn't originate from the Serbian Government, but it may have been encouraged by the Government and even aided indirectly, through proxies close to both sides (the government of Serbia and the illegal Bosnian organisation "Mlada Bosna" - "Bosnian Youth" which organised the assassination of the arch duke).

During the reign of King Alexander I Obrenovic (1889-1903) a group of young officers organised a resistance movement against his rule. They were primarily against him for his marriage to a widowed 11 years his senior court lady Draga Masin, who became Queen in 1900. After that things turned for the worse. Wages of the army officers were cut. Queen's brothers whom the army despised assumed high military positions. It all led to such resent that the young officers in question organised a group called "Crna Ruka" (Black Hand). This group was aided by Russia and Peter Karadjordjevic, son of exiled former ruler of Serbia Alexander Karadjrdjevic. Peter Karadjordjevic was also famous for his participation in the Bosnian rebellion (1875-1878) where he led a small army of rebels against Turks and gained sympathies of the Serbian general population. The young officers also had sympathies for the Bosnian independence movement.

Following his ascension to the throne, King Peter I Karadjordjevic promptly renounced the Secret Convention. This resulted in economic sanctions imposed by Austria (ban on pork imported from Serbia - the so called Pork war) and political actions (annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908). To avoid an outright war with Austria, King Peter and his Prime Minister Nikola Pasic resorted to alternative channels. Once again the Black hand was employed, this time to provide supplies and training to the Bosnian paramilitaries. Although a direct link between the Serbian Government and the Sarajevo assassination did not exist, it was possible to trace it through the Black Hand and its members.

	25-05-2005 01:03									#28
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Wow, quite a history lesson there.


On a side note , the new save went out to Czar Trollius IV.

First post updated with the following: AI set to Sid, permanent war set between France and Austria-Hungary.

	25-05-2005 02:39									#29
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Another interesting read related to WWI is Turtledove's triology "The Great War" but start with the 1880s prequeal "How Few Remain"

That is followed by "The American Empire" triology [post WWI to beginning of WWII],

which is followed by "Return Engagement" triology. (WW II) But only the first book in this is currently out. (The second is due in August, and the 3rd in Aug 2006)

It remains to be seen if turtledove is going to continue this series past WW II; I guess it depends in part upon book sales for the 2nd and 3rd books.

Without spoiler infomation, this whole set is based on "What if the South won the Civil War." In this case, General Lee's lost orders prior to Amtieum are recovered by the South instead of captured by the North as they were historically. The amusing thing there is that the soilders say "we almost lost the war right there."

	25-05-2005 07:16									#30
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Good read.

btw - which download do we need - the English version or the MP version?? (I know I know. A stupid question.)