26-05-2005 22:32									#31
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"again you;re very simplistic in your approach "

Thanks, you know I'm right if this is the best you can do.

	26-05-2005 22:33									#32
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i answered in previous post

	26-05-2005 22:33									#33
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Pekka, why do you hate freedom? You communist.

	26-05-2005 22:33									#34
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common identity doesn't exist.

It's called the leftist utopia and illusion, shared by leftists around the Europe. Just because them guys like to tangle their buns together doesn't make it reality or even wise.

	26-05-2005 22:34									#35
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joncha, I don't hate freedom I am PRO-individual-choice.

	26-05-2005 22:34									#36
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You're such a commie.

	26-05-2005 22:35									#37
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btw dont listen to pekka on this.

	26-05-2005 22:36									#38
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I don't care if you whip your mouth like that.Leftist always base their arugments on the same tactics. Run your mouth and never prove anything. And that's what you are. Little ants.

	26-05-2005 22:36									#39
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"The question is who we don't mind, or only hate them little enough to still be able to cooperate realistically."

That's right Pekka.




However self interest and greed added to ...hate is a strond word... distaste and dislike with a healthy measure of distrust... will keep the euros apart for a very long time.

	26-05-2005 22:36									#40
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_
don't care if you whip your mouth like that.Leftist always base their arugments on the same tactics. Run your mouth and never prove anything. And that's what you are. Little ants




lance be sure you dont believe simply what you want to believe!

	26-05-2005 22:37									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor As for rearmement and NATO: it is part of the constitution.

quote: Article I-41 Specific provisions relating to the common security and defence policy 1. The common security and defence policy shall be an integral part of the common foreign and security policy. It shall provide the Union with an operational capacity drawing on civil and military assets. The Union may use them on missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter. The performance of these tasks shall be undertaken using capabilities provided by the Member States. 2. The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. The policy of the Union in accordance with this Article shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States, it shall respect the obligations of certain Member States, which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, under the North Atlantic Treaty, and be compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework. 3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy. Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities. An Agency in the field of defence capabilities development, research, acquisition and armaments (European Defence Agency) shall be established to identify operational requirements, to promote measures to satisfy those requirements, to contribute to identifying and, where appropriate, implementing any measure needed to strengthen the industrial and technological base of the defence sector, to participate in defining a European capabilities and armaments policy, and to assist the Council in evaluating the improvement of military capabilities. 4. European decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those initiating a mission as referred to in this Article, shall be adopted by the Council acting unanimously on a proposal from the Union Minister for Foreign Affairs or an initiative from a Member State. The Union Minister for Foreign Affairs may propose the use of both national resources and Union instruments, together with the Commission where appropriate. 5. The Council may entrust the execution of a task, within the Union framework, to a group of Member States in order to protect the Union's values and serve its interests. The execution of such a task shall be governed by Article III-310. 6. Those Member States whose military capabilities fulfil higher criteria and which have made more binding commitments to one another in this area with a view to the most demanding missions shall establish permanent structured cooperation within the Union framework. Such cooperation shall be governed by Article III-312. It shall not affect the provisions of Article III-309. 7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States. Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation. 8. The European Parliament shall be regularly consulted on the main aspects and basic choices of the common security and defence policy. It shall be kept informed of how it evolves.

	26-05-2005 22:37									#42
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paiktis, well you tell me what the **** is european common identity? You are so full of **** I'm not even laughing.

There is no ****ing european identity or even unity.

To say that is like listening to the Iraqi prime minister during his 'there are no american troops in baghdad' while the tanks are rolling in the backround.

	26-05-2005 22:38									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka paiktis, well you tell me what the **** is european common identity? You are so full of **** I'm not even laughing. There is no ****ing european identity or even unity. To say that is like listening to the Iraqi prime minister during his 'there are no american troops in baghdad' while the tanks are rolling in the backround.

it has been gradually developed, slowly but surely over some decades now.

	26-05-2005 22:40									#44
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 In most of the other original 15 countries though more developed.

It's still very far from being overwhelming though.

90% of the Europeans feel a closer bond to their national identity than to Europe. Among them, a half doesn't feel European at all (source: 2000)

	26-05-2005 22:40									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It's still very far from being overwhelming though. 90% of the Europeans feel a closer bond to their national identity than to Europe. Among them, a half doesn't feel European at all (source: 2000)

sure.

my main point is that it has been generated some time in the past a feeling that didnt exist before, or that it existed but on a different basis.

	26-05-2005 22:41									#46
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No it hasn't. What is it? tell me what it is then? This is like saying, well, the conversatives with conscious developed over two weeks and now we have better ideas and moral grounds for every social issue there is against anyone else, because we say so.

That just simply isn't true paiktis, no matter how hard you want to believe in it. This is what the doctors would call a placebo.

	26-05-2005 22:41									#47
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"lance be sure you dont believe simply what you want to believe!"

I don't want to believe this, but I can't deny it. That would be dishonest.

I'm just glad you euros skip a few generations now and again before whacking each other by the millions... Many thanks for this.

Though I guess any parents of pilots lost over Serbia might take exception to that statement.

	26-05-2005 22:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "lance be sure you dont believe simply what you want to believe!" I don't want to believe this, but I can't deny it. That would be dishonest. I'm just glad you euros skip a few generations now and again before whacking each other by the millions... Many thanks for this. Though I guess any parents of pilots lost over Serbia might take exception to that statement.

oh boy. you know they are many different POVs that are hugely different but as efficient and wide spread as yours

	26-05-2005 22:42									#49
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"90% of the Europeans feel a closer bond to their national identity than to Europe. Among them, a half doesn't feel European at all (source: 2000)"

Sounds about right.

So what was the common identity? Do you realize it's ****ing impossible to have common identity? Do you realize we are different people from different cultures etc etc etc? WHAT - COMMON - IDENTITY?

	26-05-2005 22:42									#50
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Spiffor: That looks to me like it gives everybody ample wiggle room to do what they want to do with regard to common defense and doesn't specify spending levels.

But of course I wonder why such language is even in a constitution. Defense treaties may come and go. Defensive or offensive measures may change from time to time, as required. As we have discussed, those are the kinds of objections I have with the constitution. It's not durable.

Last edited by DanS on 26-05-2005 at 22:49

	26-05-2005 22:43									#51
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Common european identity?

Thanks for that. I have to go to work soon and that will have me chuckling all day.

	26-05-2005 22:45									#52
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"oh boy. you know they are many different POVs that are hugely different but as efficient and wide spread as yours "

Sure, we can all hope for a better future.

	26-05-2005 22:45									#53
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yeah, I mean albanians, croats and serbs... germans vs everyone else, french vs everyone else too, UK vs everyone else, greece and turkey.. the north and the south, we are just so same. Dude.. wtf? There is no common factor. Nothing.

Save the 'we are the world crap'.

	26-05-2005 22:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor 90% of the Europeans feel a closer bond to their national identity than to Europe. Among them, a half doesn't feel European at all (source: 2000)

I saw a poll on BBC like that a few months ago listing all the different nationalities and whether they considered themselves European, but I haven't been able to find it since then.

	26-05-2005 22:48									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka yeah, I mean albanians, croats and serbs... germans vs everyone else, french vs everyone else too, UK vs everyone else, greece and turkey.. the north and the south, we are just so same. Dude.. wtf? There is no common factor. Nothing. Save the 'we are the world crap'.

oh but it exists pekka

	26-05-2005 22:49									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So what was the common identity? Do you realize it's ****ing impossible to have common identity? Do you realize we are different people from different cultures etc etc etc? WHAT - COMMON - IDENTITY?

Collective identities, be they nationality-based, village-based, football-team based, or political ideology-based, are often artificial. A European collective identity isn't fiction: actually, 55% of the Europeans had it to some extent in 2000, and the figure has probably grown since then, as we now have euro coins in our pockets.

A collective identity can be created with the appropriate cultural/symbolic policy. Good flag, good anthem, permanent repetition of identity symbols (currency is efficient), and other things can do the trick.

France is a typical example of a successful artificial collective identity. It took centuries to make it prevalent on the whole territory, but it does work.

	26-05-2005 22:50									#57
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The Italians are universally loved in europe, yes? I guess, I really don't know. Any euros can answer this for me?

	26-05-2005 22:54									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The Italians are universally loved in europe, yes? I guess, I really don't know. Any euros can answer this for me?

I'm not Euro, but I'm willing to love them...

	26-05-2005 22:55									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Spiffor: That looks to me like it gives everybody ample wiggle room to do what they want to do with regard to common defense and doesn't specify spending levels.

It is open to interpetation, but not that much. It is clear that the EU common defense policy cannot go against NATO (which is a big duh anyway, because the EU common defense policy requires consensus to get anything done). And it is clear that countries are not welcome to let their militaries rot. In particular, if a country reduces its military spending, such action could be deemed as unconstitutional.

quote: But of course I wonder why such language is even in a constitution. Defense treaties may come and go. Defensive or offensive measures may change from time to time, as required. As we have discussed, those are the kinds of objections I have with the constitution. It's not durable.

Agreed. This is the reason why I oppose this constitution as well. The fact that the content of the text sucks (to my perspective as a French leftist, at least) only adds to it. Had the overly-detailed constitution been full of good policies, I might have voted for it.

	26-05-2005 22:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The Italians are universally loved in europe, yes? I guess, I really don't know. Any euros can answer this for me?

What? These thieves, these arrogant crooks and con-men?