27-05-2005 01:49									#91
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark absolutely. The immigration experience, the public school system, the desire of the children of immigrants to fit in, to move up, to get away from the ways of their "embarrassing" immigrant parents, is almost cliche over here. Americans of european origin only started really celebratring"ethnicity" when it was dilute enough to not be dangerous.

That's the opposite model. The one most feared. That people would lose their roots. (And there weren't any immigrants either). That's why you see a mass return of young kids to tradition. Of course ethnicity isn't as dangerous as in the US since things are or were pretty homogenious in those hereby societies.

BTW when you say fitin you assume that there was a "prototype model" in the US, if I'm notmistaken.

	27-05-2005 01:50									#92
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I think the de minimus standard for a democracy is that theres no barrier to citizens understanding what their pols are saying, without need for translation. Otherwise you have fundamentally different political discourses going on.

I suspect that Europe is actually in a better way in this regard than most Americans realize, as multilingualism is very advanced there, esp among young people. Whether its enough to have a common polity, I dont know.

I also realize that we're moving in the opposite direction here, as pols have started to give speeches in Spanish. For now I dont see that as extensive enough to be a danger to the common discourse.

	27-05-2005 01:52									#93
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 That's the opposite model. The one most feared. That people would lose their roots. (And there weren't any immigrants either). That's why you see a mass return of young kids to tradition. Of course ethnicity isn't as dangerous as in the US since things are or were pretty homogenious in those hereby societies. BTW when you say fitin you assume that there was a "prototype model" in the US, if I'm notmistaken.

fit in varies - an italian american striving to "fit in" at city college in NYC was trying to fit in to something different than say a Japanese American in Los Angeles, as there were subtle differences in culture in outlook between NY and Los Angeles, say. But in all cases an English speaking culture, with much in common across regions, classes, professions.

	27-05-2005 01:59									#94
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In my job I have had to visit several European countries (G.B., Sweden, Denmark, Nederland, Belgium, Germany, Swiss, Italy, Spain and Portugal). I always and everywhere felt at home. From that repeated experience, I was inclined to think that the inhabitants of these countries were not significantly different from me; they were not perfectly like me, only different enough for making possible to recognize an English European from a German European. For me, this is the definition of my sense of belonging to Europe, and I am unable to understand what Pekka is saying on the European identity.

	27-05-2005 02:10									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka no we hate the ****ers. The question is who we don't mind, or only hate them little enough to still be able to cooperate realistically. The European Super Love Unity is something the leftists wants to believe in. Typical of them really. 'BUT IT'S A NICE THOUGHT! DON'T YOU WANT THAT?'. SUre. But it's not true. I tend to live in the REAL world. Another reason why leftists are the plague of this world. And no, democrats are not leftists in my book.

There was a guy who tried to take it by force and he came from the ultra right. Ofc he failed as well.

GODWINZED

	27-05-2005 02:33									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola So, the erection of a Superpower Europe, to rival and inhibit the USA world overlord, founders because of, guess whoo, French leftists, socialists and commie-dummies. How predictable. Commie-dummies continue their unstoppleble march to failure and obscurity.

1. French leftists are far from being the onyl ones opposed to the constitution.

2. This constitution is no step in the construction of a European superpower.

	27-05-2005 02:38									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka oh and PS. there is no european identity. Or if there is... show it. Prove it. 'oh but you can't prove an identity+!+1'.

You can prove an identity, but it's actually a tedious academical task (the study of the European identity was my first serious academic research, which is why I know a bot about it).

The figure I gave isn't perfect, but it's a rough indocator: ca. 45% of the Europeans have no feeling of identity toward Europe at all. ca 45% do feel European, but their national identity is stronger. ca 8% feel primarily European, but still have a national identity, and only ca 2%, a very small margin, feel exclusively European.

	27-05-2005 02:38									#98
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what are the basics of this constitution anyway?
I heard that basically there not much more than simply all the existing legislature writen in a shorten simplified format.

how could you compare this with let's say the maastricht treaty (and the additional 2 pillars it created?)

	27-05-2005 02:49									#99
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The constitution is nothing revolutionary, and brings in slight changes. However, in comparison with Amsterdam or Nice (that saw negligible change), the constitution looks revolutionary in the eyes of the political microcosmos.

The constitution is a small step in the right direction actually. The decision-making will be slightly less inefficient, and slightly less antidemocratic. The Charter for Human Rights will now be binding. The constitution also modifies the balance of power in the Council.

The reason why I oppose this constitution is not because of the text in itself (which is terrible, but slightly less so than the prequels), but because of the waste of a historical opportunity: It is the first time that much work has been devoted by a supranational institution (the convention) to think about the future of the EU. It is a first, and like man firsts, it is a failure. The text sucks.

Now, if we accept this terrible text as it is, we won't see another convention anytime soon. Actually, we won't see one until we have a major crisis in the EU, that affects every country at once.

We won't answer the real questions about the future of Europe: do we want an integrated political Europe, yes or no?

We won't tackle the problem that has stopped the evolution of the EU ever since France-Germany have stopped being the undisputed bosses: who wants to be in a politically integrated Europe, and who doesn't?

And this is why I think that we'll remain utterly stuck with the pathetic EU as it is now, if the text becomes accepted. OTOH, if the text is rejected, the European elites will probably stop to give in to complacency, and they'll ask the real questions. They'll seize the historical opportunity, but only if we give them another one.

	27-05-2005 02:55									#100
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Ok, but some things shouldn't be rushed either. You remember the case about the common military that the french parliement undertook in the '50s IIRC. And was rejected by alittle majority but was indeed rejected.

maybe the question about a political europe is not yet ready to be answered?

I'm just saying, I dont have a definite opinion on this.

OTOH the pro constitution camp claims that if this treaty is rejected then things would simply stay as they are now. which would actually be a drawback.

	27-05-2005 02:59									#101
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Actually now that I think about it, I am fine with the EU as it is. I don't want more and I don't want less.

	27-05-2005 03:12									#102
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 OTOH the pro constitution camp claims that if this treaty is rejected then things would simply stay as they are now. which would actually be a drawback.

They are probably sincere hen they say it (they also say many other things on which they aren't sincere at all - in the campaign, they're the ones most guilty of scaremongering).

But I think that they haven't been thinking about what to do if the referendum brings up a new deal. It's only once push will come to shove that they'll realise that something must change, and that they can bring the change. And the more countries say NO, with other reasons than France's, the more urgently the European political elites will have to adapt to the new deal.

A non vote would be a tiny political crisis. It'll bother the French government, and some ministerial seats will swap. It will bother the EU political microcosmos, and they'll be brooding for weeks. But it will force an actual change (especially so if more countries vote no as well). And the EU has only undergone a serious change after a major crisis.

I'm willing to pay the price of a tiny crisis like that if it means change. It sure beats waiting for a major destructive crisis any day

	27-05-2005 03:14									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Actually now that I think about it, I am fine with the EU as it is. I don't want more and I don't want less.

Don't you want significantly more democracy in the EU? Like the idea that the main centre of power is the parliament, rather than unelected bureaucrats?

	27-05-2005 03:16									#104
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I understand what you're saying but I admit I think that you are a bit "pre-emptive" when you say that this change will be for more integration...
If I understand correctly you think that this constitution doesn't go far enough. However the groups that opposite it all have different ideas why they're doing it. So how could one be sure which exactly direction the new constitution would take?
Just some questions that came up from reading your post.

Although I think I understand where you're coming from. If I followed the negotiations correctly the original text was much bolder than the final one... After the negotiations it had to be "diluted" a bit.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 27-05-2005 at 03:22

	27-05-2005 03:31									#105
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I understand what you're saying but I admit I think that you are a bit "pre-emptive" when you say that this change will be for more integration... If I understand correctly you think that this constitution doesn't go far enough. However the groups that opposite it all have different ideas why they're doing it. So how could one be sure which exactly direction the new constitution would take? Just some questions that came up from reading your post. Although I think I understand where you're coming from. If I followed the negotiations correctly the original text was much bolder than the final one... After the negotiations it had to be "diluted" a bit.

Actually, I think that the Europeans must decide on their general visions for the future fo the Union before a constitution is drafted.

I don't think that so many European countries want political integration. At least, some countries (Britain, Denmark, Poland) are very adamant about their sovereignty, and I don't think it'll change.

If the constitution is rejected by the people, I actually expect the European political elites to ask the real questions about the future of Europe, and to acknowledge the deep division among countries on that issue. The reason why our European institutions are nearly stuck is because we can't "agree to disagree", which is something the EU dramatically needs.

I think that our European elites will finally be forced to "agree to disagree" if France and Britain (and maybe Poland) reject the constitution, especially for different reasons. The issue has been hinted enough in the past (actually, there are occasional talks about it since Maastricht), but it has never been dealt with seriously.

If we finally agree to disagree, maybe the pro-political Europe will stop dragging the reluctant British along. And maybe the British will stop hindering the trailblazing European countries.

	27-05-2005 03:40									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Actually, I think that the Europeans must decide on their general visions for the future fo the Union before a constitution is drafted. I don't think that so many European countries want political integration. At least, some countries (Britain, Denmark, Poland) are very adamant about their sovereignty, and I don't think it'll change. If the constitution is rejected by the people, I actually expect the European political elites to ask the real questions about the future of Europe, and to acknowledge the deep division among countries on that issue. The reason why our European institutions are nearly stuck is because we can't "agree to disagree", which is something the EU dramatically needs. I think that our European elites will finally be forced to "agree to disagree" if France and Britain (and maybe Poland) reject the constitution, especially for different reasons. The issue has been hinted enough in the past (actually, there are occasional talks about it since Maastricht), but it has never been dealt with seriously. If we finally agree to disagree, maybe the pro-political Europe will stop dragging the reluctant British along. And maybe the British will stop hindering the trailblazing European countries.

Placed under that light I on principal would agree. That how ever would mean opening the way for a 2 speed EU. But maybe that's better. In any case it is a completely new on going experiment. Can't know till you try

However these days I'm not so concerned with further integration as I am with the politico-economic direction the Commission is taking. I think it is far too liberal and since the EU countries have given away a very large part of their sovereignity ecnomically speaking I think its role and direction is critical and affects me directly. I have a feeling the Commission has been breached with too much liberalism in its policies. In short I see a "Europe of capital" being more and more created instead of the "Europe of peoples". Of course there's a universal swift towards neoliberalism but I think the Commission dances dangerously close to being detrimental to a wide arrey of social wins of the past.
But anyway I see your point. A constitution that would lead the way for the integration not to be so burdened by the "unwilling".

	27-05-2005 03:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That country has a shared culture and national language.

Which culture would that be exactly?

Oh and you're talking 'bout Spanish, right?

	27-05-2005 03:55									#108
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 However these days I'm not so concerned with further integration as I am with the politico-economic direction the Commission is taking. I think it is far too liberal

The two are closely related. Did you know that the Lisboa agenda (an extremely liberal 10-year plan) was decided when most European governments were left-of-centre, including the most important ones (France, Germany, Britain)?

The reason is not because these people have thatcherite ideologies, but because the very system as it is now doesn't permit to have ambitious policies that harmonize toward the top. In order to reach a compromise between the many different countries, we always need to dumb down any ambition to the smallest common denominator. Ultraliberalism. Even when most countries oppose it.

The treaty of Nice was especially appalling in this regard. It was supposed to be a grandiose thing, and it ended up only negociating how many seats Poland and Spain would hold in the Council This is because of Nice's utter failure that they called the convention. And the convention has done an almost decent job at providing some change in the EU (because the rules weren't decided by diplomats representing the short term interests of their individual government, but because the rules were decided by a supranational body, even though it was very imperfect).

	27-05-2005 04:09									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The two are closely related. Did you know that the Lisboa agenda (an extremely liberal 10-year plan) was decided when most European governments were left-of-centre, including the most important ones (France, Germany, Britain)?

Yep but I thought its main objective was to "increase european competition". I suppose that's a well shaped saying to push forward more liberalism. As is that ugly "flexible workmarket" saying.

quote: The reason is not because these people have thatcherite ideologies, but because the very system as it is now doesn't permit to have ambitious policies that harmonize toward the top. In order to reach a compromise between the many different countries, we always need to dumb down any ambition to the smallest common denominator. Ultraliberalism. Even when most countries oppose it.

Is that the reason? I don't know... Could be. Maybe the least common denominator of most EU countries is liberalism. But do you think that was the case when the Lisboa Agenda was negotiated? With so many social democracies? But could be.

IMO the recent failure of the european social democratic governments to live up to their social promises has created a sort of "stunned paralysis" in the creation of new social and economic policiesthat are tuned to provide for the people. The neoliberal model is more free than before to push for changes towards anti-social policies. Playing without real adversary for the moement In levels where the democratic deficit is more pronounced like in the Commission, I think it shows even more and is as or more capable of impact as a national government.

	27-05-2005 15:02									#110
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark absolutely. The immigration experience, the public school system, the desire of the children of immigrants to fit in, to move up, to get away from the ways of their "embarrassing" immigrant parents, is almost cliche over here. Americans of european origin only started really celebratring"ethnicity" when it was dilute enough to not be dangerous.

I didn't mean that. I meaned that I think there wasn't a single cultural identity in the beginning of the US.

	27-05-2005 15:13									#111
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you people are just stupid. I think I can prove it with academic research. FACT.

	27-05-2005 15:18									#113
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BeBro, I heard the Bundesrat voted for the constitution today. Was there any significant debate in Germany on the issue, or was the opposition to the project barely mentioned in the media?

	27-05-2005 15:18									#114
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It's rare to hear high flying BS as fact. There are theories, there are ideals, utopias and ideologies. But there's no such thing as european identity. SURE, Europe is Europe. If you are in Europe, you are in Europe. And in Europe there are Europeans. You guys make it sound like there's more into it than the obvious. Identity is a little bit more than that.

If you travel in here, of course it's 'similar' in a way. We are in the west. Things tend to be similar in here. But that's where it ends. And just because some folks have a feeling they are in Europe when they are.. well.. DUH? What you want.. a ****ing medal for the obvious?

	27-05-2005 15:26									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor BeBro, I heard the Bundesrat voted for the constitution today. Was there any significant debate in Germany on the issue, or was the opposition to the project barely mentioned in the media?

So far I read opposition was mentioned, although hardly the military problem you spoke of earlier. Most concerns were about a further loss of souvereignty (sp), fears of an EU too powerful over national parliaments, more bureaucracy etc.

But yes, it wasn't really a biiig debate, most concerns were voiced in the media in the last weeks before the decision was made. A public referendum would have certainly caused a much bigger debate.....

	27-05-2005 15:28									#116
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at least you have debate. IN here leftist traitors are making sure there is no debate, no vote, and nothing of the democratic nature about the thing. They also make sure no one has ever heard about the constitution. Because they already want to decide for you. That's their motto, anti-freedom.

	27-05-2005 16:16									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka It's rare to hear high flying BS as fact. There are theories, there are ideals, utopias and ideologies. But there's no such thing as european identity. SURE, Europe is Europe. If you are in Europe, you are in Europe. And in Europe there are Europeans. You guys make it sound like there's more into it than the obvious. Identity is a little bit more than that. If you travel in here, of course it's 'similar' in a way. We are in the west. Things tend to be similar in here. But that's where it ends. And just because some folks have a feeling they are in Europe when they are.. well.. DUH? What you want.. a ****ing medal for the obvious?

If I follow you, common identity does reflect the similarities. So common identity reflects differences. Could you describe what make the Finns so different from other Europeans that they will never recognize that they share with them common values?

	27-05-2005 16:22									#118
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They ain't indo-Europeans, these little ****ers

	27-05-2005 16:32									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor They ain't indo-Europeans, these little ****ers

You mean that non Indo-European are not really human?

	27-05-2005 16:35									#120
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You mean, you don't hate these people's guts?