30-05-2005 21:43									#91
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No, but your reasoning about the media's motivations for wanting these pictures in your post replying to Theben still denies the point others, including myself, have been trying to make.

	30-05-2005 22:05									#92
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Must have missed your posts, MrFun. There's some detachment involved in seeing the effect of the action rather than the action itself. Even depictions of the action are sometimes disturbing, and are not shown or are shown in venues where you choose to see it.

Why do you think most court proceedings are text only?

	30-05-2005 22:26									#93
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I'm sure the German villagers didn't like being forced to walk through the camps either.

	30-05-2005 22:33									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Must have missed your posts, MrFun. There's some detachment involved in seeing the effect of the action rather than the action itself. Even depictions of the action are sometimes disturbing, and are not shown or are shown in venues where you choose to see it. Why do you think most court proceedings are text only?

The fact that certain actions are disturbing is not a justification for denying people an opportunity to see the photos. I don't close my eyes to controversy, and neither do I shut my eyes to something important, just because it's disturbing.



As for German civilians who were forced to walk through the death camps in areas liberated by the allies -- I have no sympathy for those German civilians. They had to be shown what their complacency, ignorance, or even complete collaboration with the Nazis had done to millions of innocent victims.

	30-05-2005 22:34									#95
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Everyone who supported the war should have these photos tatooed inside their eyelids.

	30-05-2005 22:36									#96
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amen, Che

	30-05-2005 22:48									#97
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quote: The fact that certain actions are disturbing is not a justification for denying people an opportunity to see the photos. I don't close my eyes to controversy, and neither do I shut my eyes to something important, just because it's disturbing.

In the current state of the media, what this means is that such photos will be plastered wall-to-wall. In order to avoid these photos, you will need to be a hermit for the rest of your life.

I don't share, but am sympathetic to the view that while it's a balancing act, there's really no middle ground in practical terms (they are either released or buried in the stacks of classified information for the next 30 or 40 years), so it's the best choice among very bad choices to release.

quote: As for German civilians who were forced to walk through the death camps in areas liberated by the allies -- I have no sympathy for those German civilians. They had to be shown what their complacency, ignorance, or even complete collaboration with the Nazis had done to millions of innocent victims.

Neither do I have sympathy for them. But even that act of going through the camps is at least one step removed from seeing the process in action. I do not know where you stop the projector in the Clockwork Orange cleansing process, but it's probably some place between the camps and footage of the acts as they were going down.

	30-05-2005 23:38									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In the current state of the media, what this means is that such photos will be plastered wall-to-wall. In order to avoid these photos, you will need to be a hermit for the rest of your life.

I haven't actually seen the photos outside of volountarily viewing them on the internet - and even then, I don't think I've seen any of the more gruesome ones.

	30-05-2005 23:40									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In the current state of the media, what this means is that such photos will be plastered wall-to-wall. In order to avoid these photos, you will need to be a hermit for the rest of your life. I don't share, but am sympathetic to the view that while it's a balancing act, there's really no middle ground in practical terms (they are either released or buried in the stacks of classified information for the next 30 or 40 years), so it's the best choice among very bad choices to release.

I don't think releasing such photos is the best choice among very bad choices. I believe that releasing such photos is a very good choice among other choices that are very bad.

quote: Originally posted by DanS Neither do I have sympathy for them. But even that act of going through the camps is at least one step removed from seeing the process in action. I do not know where you stop the projector in the Clockwork Orange cleansing process, but it's probably some place between the camps and footage of the acts as they were going down.

Yes, but because they did not have time travel (and as far as I know, we don't have it yet, today) the next best thing from witnessing the actual process of herding women, children and elderly men into gas chambers and then witnessing the mass cremations and burials is to see the end result -- mass graves of naked, starved, decaying bodies of the victims.

	31-05-2005 02:33									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't need people like you who think they know what's best for me to decide what pictures I see. It's the same condescension that the media indulges in.

You are quite right. My condescension is real and based on the fact that I have seen war first hand and you haven't.

Everyone from dumbf*ckistan who voted for Bush should have that war rubbed in their face every single day until its over.

	31-05-2005 02:36									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I have seen war first hand

eh?

	31-05-2005 02:39									#102
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Shutting up, as requested.

Last edited by Starchild on 31-05-2005 at 03:15

	31-05-2005 02:40									#103
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Oh yes Paiktis I have been there, and I couldn't turn away.

I'll never forget seeing hospital wards full of little kids with no arms or legs. That is what war is. That is what people like Dan don't like to see because it upsets their eggs benedict and shows them what they are really supporting with such indifference to human suffering.

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 31-05-2005 at 02:46

	31-05-2005 03:03									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild The Great Australian Beer Wars, before refrigeration was common place. Oh 1987, what a time to be alive.

Oh shut up starchild - when you've been somewhere like this you come and tell me about war and what a joke it is.

http://www.websitesrcg.com/border/border-camps.html

This rings true to what I remember

quote: Life in the border camps was on the whole better than inside Cambodia - food, water, shelter, healthcare and education, all were consistent in provision and in most cases superior to what existed in Cambodia. But the population density and abnormal environment made for an unnatural and stressful existence. Many people came to use the camps as a backup during times of drought or fighting in Cambodia. There was the dark side to the camps with all manner of exploitation and human rights violations ranging from conscription and forced population movements to extortion and physical abuse by Thai authorities. Add to this an abundance of war weapons and the potential for deadly violence multiplies. It was not unusual to hear of grenades and RPGs being used in personal disputes.

To say conditions were superior to what was going on in Cambodia wasn't saying much. The men came back from patrols or portering duty inside Cambodia, would get drunk and roll hand grenades into huts if they thought their women had been unfaithful.

This is site 2, the largest camp which I visted several times

http://www.websitesrcg.com/border/camps/Site-2.html

There were over 200,000 people in site 2 alone. It was overrun with children, most of whom had never known life outside the camp.

That is what war is. Masses of ordinary people suffering through no fault of their own.

	31-05-2005 03:08									#105
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quote: My condescension is real and based on the fact that I have seen war first hand and you haven't.

Are we to allow your condescension to rule our world? It's not your choice and shouldn't be your choice. Presumably, you volunteered for the military. You made your choice about what you were willing to see. I did not volunteer in likewise fashion.

quote: Everyone from dumbf*ckistan who voted for Bush should have that war rubbed in their face every single day of their shameful gutless life.

I don't mean to have military reality TV take over the media to assuage your grudge against the voters.

	31-05-2005 03:16									#106
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quote: That is what people like Dan don't like to see because it upsets their eggs benedict and shows them what they are really supporting with such indifference to human suffering.

Since when is wanting to see it in text versus photos "indifference to human suffering"? I think you're going overboard here, AH.

	31-05-2005 03:21									#107
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So when will these photos be released?

	31-05-2005 03:22									#108
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Don't know. I assume we'll have an appeal from the government. Maybe somebody will leak the photos othewise.

Last edited by DanS on 31-05-2005 at 03:34

	31-05-2005 03:29									#109
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I wasn't in the military, I'm in the peace business.

	31-05-2005 03:31									#110
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I can see where they might be confused sometimes.

	31-05-2005 03:34									#111
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I also run a mile from anything that whiffs of war or fighting so I'm not one of those conflict junkies.

But anyway, when you think of Iraq, think of the suffering of the children.

	31-05-2005 03:39									#112
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I've tried to think of the interests of the vast majority of the children. It was a cocked up situation to begin with and we were making the situation worse by what we were doing beforehand anyways. If we're going to be gutless no matter the situation, I would rather us have been gutless in this fashion.

	31-05-2005 03:43									#113
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Crap like this makes it worse:

	31-05-2005 03:45									#114
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Total agreement, Ted.

Bush...our fearless leader...my hero....

-=Vel=-

	31-05-2005 03:45									#115
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I don't think that made it worse, but think that "shock and awe" was well over the top. Good for the goose, good for the gander and whatnot.

	31-05-2005 03:45									#116
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Since when is wanting to see it in text versus photos "indifference to human suffering"?

I think you already know the answer to that dan. I think you're going overboard there

	31-05-2005 03:48									#117
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Since when is wanting to see it in text versus photos "indifference to human suffering"? I think you're going overboard here, AH.

Because black text on newspaper can easily be passed off as hyperbole while color photos of the acts are a little harder to dismiss.

	31-05-2005 03:49									#118
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Very true. There is no question of what is going on when it's a photograph.

	31-05-2005 04:30									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Very true. There is no question of what is going on when it's a photograph.

Unless, of course, if it is a fake, witch was the case of those from UK.

	31-05-2005 04:35									#120
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't think that made it worse, but think that "shock and awe" was well over the top. Good for the goose, good for the gander and whatnot.

Or the outrage of Bush dressing up as a soldier while ignorant about what war is really like.