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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Herreson, yes, Poles were the second largest group of people killed in the Holocaust, because three million of those Jews were Poles. How many Poles died in the Holocaust? Three million. 
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That's the example of ignorance I'm talking about.
My post was not about Poles of Jewish descent, or Poles of judaic religion, it was about Poles without connection to Jewishness of any kind. These were sth like 6-7% of prisoners of Auschwitz, still, they were the second biggest group there,
including Romas and (far far away) gays.
over 6 mln Polish citizens died during the war; almost 3mln of them were Jews or people of Jewish descent.
Of course, You don't have to count all the rest as victims of Holocaust (especially that some were killed by Soviets), but some You have to.
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Wycoff
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The OP is ridiculous. No nation has ever been as brow beaten as the German nation. Most Germans, especially Germans leadership, are tripping over themselves to express their shame and guilt for the Holocaust. The media has emasculated the German nation. If anything, I think that the world has given Germany more than its fair share of guilt. What countries haven't commited atrocities on others? How about the Belgians in the Congo, the US against the Native Americans, the Brits against their colonial peoples, the Soviets and the Gulag, Russian pogroms, etc. Why does no one mention the fact that the Brits gladly starved tens of thousands of German civillians to death with their blockade during WW 1, a blockade that they kept up even after the Germans had surrendered? I could go on.
The point is, out of all of man's atrocities, it seems that the Holocaust is the one thing that is never let go by the media. Why is it that a new book on the holocaust is released seemingly every month? What is so special about the Jews that they deserve all this attention, and what is so evil about the Germans that they continue to deserve all this shame? Why does the US have a Holocaust museum, but not a Belgian Congo museum, a Nanking Museum, a Gulag museum, etc? I think that the Germans have served their penance. It's time to take our foot of their throats and allow Germans to feel proud of their rich culture and heritage once more. The Holocaust was terrible, but it wasn't even unique. Hell, in the Torah God urges the Israelites to commit genocide on their neighbors. Given all this, why does the Holocaust get so much attention to this day? German has paid for its crime. Its time to let things go.
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Irrelevant. The point is, that outside the North American continent, the Spanish-American War is when American imperialism really began.
The after effects can still be seen in American policy towards the Panama Canal and Panama itself, the American sponsored coup against the legitimate democratically elected Arbenz government of Guatemala in the 1950s, to serve the interests of the United Fruit Company, many of whose major shareholders and directors happened to be in Eisenhower's cabinet or were, for instance, American ambassador to the United Nations.
It can be seen in America's attitude towards Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Chile, Venezuela, Angola- imperialism isn't simply about owning or occupying foreign territory, it's also about a mindset and economic power.
But don't take my word for it- try this man:
" It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
Major General Smedley Butler, U.S.M.C. |
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
But don't take my word for it- try this man:
" It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
Major General Smedley Butler, U.S.M.C. |
excellent post, Molly
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:24
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To be honest at that age I would have said the same if someone had asked me.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wycoff
The point is, out of all of man's atrocities, it seems that the Holocaust is the one thing that is never let go by the media. Why is it that a new book on the holocaust is released seemingly every month? What is so special about the Jews that they deserve all this attention, and what is so evil about the Germans that they continue to deserve all this shame? Why does the US have a Holocaust museum, but not a Belgian Congo museum, a Nanking Museum, a Gulag museum, etc? I think that the Germans have served their penance. It's time to take our foot of their throats and allow Germans to feel proud of their rich culture and heritage once more. The Holocaust was terrible, but it wasn't even unique. Hell, in the Torah God urges the Israelites to commit genocide on their neighbors. Given all this, why does the Holocaust get so much attention to this day? German has paid for its crime. Its time to let things go. |
Insofar as the US media is dominated by Jews, and as long as Israel and Jews in general use holocaust sympathy as a political tool, we will be constantly reminded of the holocaust over all over atrocities ever commited. How many people paid attention at the anniversary of the Armenian holocaust about a month ago? Nobody. I am still waiting the Spielberg movie and the museum in DC...
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Yes but France is a cultured nation. Can't say the same about rednecks like Muad'Dib. |
Hate to say it, but that is BS. France may be considered a cultured nation (whatever that mean) but actually france has been and is a serious obstacle on several issues - much good could be done if the agrcultural support was removed in EU, but france will not. Incthat way the french resembles MD a bit.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen Insofar as the US media is dominated by Jews, and as long as Israel and Jews in general use holocaust sympathy as a political tool, we will be constantly reminded of the holocaust over all over atrocities ever commited. How many people paid attention at the anniversary of the Armenian holocaust about a month ago? Nobody. I am still waiting the Spielberg movie and the museum in DC... |
I basically agree with you on this one, MZ. The Holocaust, while undeniably horrible, was just one of many horrible atrocities commited during the last century or two. I think that it gets too much attention in comparison to other atrocities. Holocaust emphasis could be dangerous, as it blurs the fact that genocide/mass murder is something that all groups of people are capable of commiting. Holocaust obsession refocuses things and making smug Americans cluck their tounges and think about how barbaric and awful the Germans were. Focusing on the special guilt of the Germans dilutes the message that anyone group is capable of genocide. Like I said, the Germans have paid their penance. Its time to bury the hatchet and allow them to be proud of themselves and all the great things Germans have contributed to the world.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wycoff
If anything, I think that the world has given Germany more than its fair share of guilt. What countries haven't commited atrocities on others? How about the Belgians in the Congo, the US against the Native Americans, the Brits against their colonial peoples, the Soviets and the Gulag, Russian pogroms, etc. Why does no one mention the fact that the Brits gladly starved tens of thousands of German civillians to death with their blockade during WW 1, a blockade that they kept up even after the Germans had surrendered? I could go on.
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Because the Nazi Holocaust was an an act committed against civilians; against Nazi Germany's own citizens; because it was deliberate extermination on an industrial scale, pursued with scientific method and aimed not merely at eliminating a people, but also at eliminating a culture and a religion.
It's not just the numbers of the dead that counts, but also the intent behind it.
Yes, Mao and Stalin's economic policies killed more people, and the repression of the kulaks and the campaign against the Chinese landlords killed many many people, but the famines in Soviet Russia and China were haphazard affairs and lacked the will to obliterate a whole culture and people.
The difference too, was that Germany and the German people had been for several centuries progenitors of a culture that set high standards in Europe- Soviet Russia and Communist China could (erroneously) be dismissed as not being like us, but Germany gave the world Bach, and Handel, Goethe and Schiller, Durer and Altdorfer, and Luther's Bible and German culture produced Mahler and Wolf, Schiele and Klimt, Bruckner and Mann, Hauptmann and Cranach.
To look at what the Nazis did in the Holocaust was to realize that it was possible for us to do the same.
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child of Thor
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I think we can all(races/nations) hold up our hands and say " yeah we're bar**ards too! "
I just hope(the ever optomist) that one day one of us(or more) will be able not too.
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04-06-2005 19:42
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