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BlackCat
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I seriously agree that thes pics is terrifying to see, but I miss som taken in the torture chambers that saddam maintained. Maybe some pics of how some of the newly revealed massgraves that was made under his regime would be some kind of enlightning.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Saddam Hussein was a blood-thirsty, corrupt, repressive dictator, I agree.
But does the necessity of overthrowing him means that we need to whitewash our own activities with such nice, sterile words as "collateral damage" when we're talking about burnt, and mutilated children? |
No. The problem is that some people think, when seeing such pictures, that we should never had done anything - totally ignoring what else was happening.
We have a local politician that claimed that the blood of such victims as shown are on our hands, but what was his solution ? I think that his solution was much worse, because he would have allowed saddam to continue his regime and maybe some day saddam could be persuaded to be a nice person.
Personally, I don't like what has happend to people in the Iraqui liberation, but I certainly would have felt worse knowing what would happen if Iraq hadn't been liberated.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
I think in the end, the Iraqis will be better off -- but that is years down the road. What I don't like, is when some people white wash the reality of war. |
Quite agree - the results of war must not be hidden, otherwise some jerks may think that war is the solution to all problems. On the other side, people has a tendency to ignore those pictures that are the reality (but never taken) when regimes like saddam are allowed to continue, Those "nontaken" pictures seldom disturbs people angry about war pictures.
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Joseph
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Ca. USA
Feb 2000
time: 21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
 at Mua'dib for making sure his manners utterly destroyed his arguement, was far as his arguement ever existed.
But there will come a time when German kids no longer really knmow much about the Holocaust. Lets not kid ourselves, time moves on, and you simply can;t endlessly pontificate about an event, no matter the event, without it losing all emotional meaning.
Then there is the added problem that the Holocaust is only one of an endless series of horrors man has influicted upon man, and all the "never again"'s chanted have actually done nothing to prevent it from happening again (at least two obvious genocides since the Holocaust).
There is finally of course the problem that the Holocaust is really a Euro-American centric disaster. As power shifts from the West eastward the value of the memory of the Holocaust will diminish. The people's of Asia and Africa have no real emotional connection to the Holocaust whatsoever. |
For once I will agree with GP.
10 or so years from now, there will be no WW I Vets living. An 18 year old in 1918 is now 105.
20 years from now there will just a few WW II Vets living. An 18 year old in 1945 is now 78.
25 years from now there will just a few Korea Vets living.
An 18 year old in 1953 is now 70
30 years from now there wll be just a few Vietnam Vets living. An 18 year old in 1973 is now 50.
If I still here 19 years from now, I will feel very, very lucky. I will 80 and I was discharge 90 days before my Ship the USS Navarro APA-215 went to Nam, and I was in Boat Group. The div that take the Marines to the shore and lands them. Some of my buddy were shot at, but none were hit.
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Locutus
Yes, because napalming 4 million civilians is a very civilized thing to do 
Obviously it's not even on the same level as the Holocaust, but you said she was a high-schooler? 15-16 maybe? Can we really expect her to know the difference? If she was a well-educated grown-up maybe... and as others have said, Germans are very well educated in this respect.
Either way, the Holocaust was the darkest hour in the history of mankind and Vietnam or any other war doesn't compare, there's no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean make every other war the epithomy of all that is good and right. The Americans did commit horrors in Vietnams, just because the Holocaust was worse doesn't make that any less true. Americans ought to be ashamed of what their countrymen did in Vietnam, just as the Germans should be ashamed of WWII, and as the Vietnamese should for their countrymen (and as such pretty much every nation has something to be ashamed of -- I feel I'm more a citizen of the world or Europe than of the Netherlands, but I feel deeply, deeply, deeply ashamed of how my fellow countrymen stood by and did nothing -- and in a way even assisted -- the Serbs during the massacre of Screbrenica, for one thing).
But in reality the only thing many Americans are ashamed of with regard to Vietnam is the fact that they lost
When Americans talk about the causualties of that war, they always talk about the 59,000 Americans that died, but I rarely catch anyone talking about the 3-4 million Vietnamese civilian casualties. I also find it extremely disturbing how Americans in Vietnam are usually depicted as heroes and the good guys. The line "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" is generally regarded as a great movie line (even voted best line in the history of cinema according to one poll) and frequently paraphrased in all sorts of context as a heroic thing to say -- how differently would we react if someone would say "I love the smell of Zyklon B in the morning"... 
The Germans generally deal with the horrors of their ancestors in a very mature and responsible way, it's an integral part of their education. That is much more than what can be said of the Americans -- that's one point where that kid isn't completely wrong... |
Great post. 
Though I do agree with pchang about the napalm thing.
In any case, most Americans have just sort of forgotten everything that has happened since World War 2 (It was 60 years ago guys!!!!!  ) and equate all war with being superman, saving the girl, and Norman Rockwell paintings.
It seems no matter what we do, we're always viewed as being on the right side, by our own population, even when we do stupid things like claim to save a people from being tortured, and then go torture some of them.
Regarding Frontline, I find them to be one of the best programs out there, "Rumsfeld's War" was an AWESOME episode.
I think the clip of the German teenager was designed as a teaching clip, to make Americans think about our own role in the world. The bottom line is that our sh1t stinks just as bad as anyone else's. Audie Murphy punched out evil Nazis 60 years ago.
Here is a question, which atrocity is worse:
1) Rwanda genocide
2) Jewish holocost
3) Roman destruction of Carthage (complete annihilation of an entire civilization)
(The Roman destruction of Gaul was also pretty bad).
Finally, I find most Germans to be more globally aware and respective than most other nations in general. Though keep in mind my bias comes from interactions with Germans who have a high level of education and a great deal of travelling outside of Germany.
Last edited by Ted Striker on 02-06-2005 at 11:41
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Muad'Dib
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Of The Known Universe
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Tiny little question though, out of curiosity: how many of those friends you speak of are Vietnamese? |
Bravo Locutus, someone actually had the courage to ask me an important question and actually wants an answer.
Before I answer, we need to clarify what a friend is.
I was close to professor in my college days. And he asked how many friends I had. I said lots. He responded, "How many of them would bail you out of jail if you were arrested say for murder or for rape." I laughed and said, "Are you serious?" "Yes," he replied. I sat there contemplating my answer. So I said, "Unless bail is really, really low, maybe 5. "Well bail in those cases is never low and you know that. Stop avoiding the question and give me your answer. "None," I said.
"Then they're not friends," he replied, "they're just acquaintances." "Come on," I said, "most of them would take a bullet or pull me out of a burning building. Just because a person doesn't have that kind money is irrelevant." "A true friend would find a way to come up with the money," he said.
So back to the question at hand. In college, I had two acquaintances. One male, Tran, and one female, Sung.
Tran, was VC. Sung was the daughter of an ARVN general. You'll all love this one, we all lived on the same dorm floor. Sung, on the women side. Tran, next door to mine. Needless to say, Sung and Tran didn't get along. Sung's father was killed in '75. I found Tran very interesting. Here was the enemy, living in America, and getting an education. Tran, was eleven years old in '73 fighting Americans. All he knew was one day, the Viet Cong came to his village, rounded up all the males and made them fight Americans. I asked him how many he killed, he refused to say. But I saw the look in his eyes when I asked him, and I knew he killed. Tran and his family came over during the boat lifts in '78. His sister drowned coming over.
Anymore questions.
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Muad'Dib
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Of The Known Universe
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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I don't like being redundant. I've explained myself in my posts. I suggest you go back and re-read all 5 pages.
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02-06-2005 02:34
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