03-06-2005 19:15									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The point is, they WOULDN'T BE ON THE MOON - a significant part of their lives, to be sure - if we hadn't gone to the moon.

Why is the moon better? The grass isn't greener on the otherside. I have no idea why we would want to live there, except for novelty. That would wear off in a couple months. It's like when I lived in Yosemite.

	03-06-2005 19:18									#93
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Population will peak before 2050. There is no possible way to get a significant number of people on the moon for at least 300 years.

	03-06-2005 19:27									#94
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My list of most significant process of the past 1000 years...

1. The Communications Revolutions (printing, telephone, TV, internet, etc)
2. Scientific Revolution
3. The Industrial Revolution
4. The Green (agriculture) Revolution
5. Nationalism
6. The development of modern medicine

That's enough for now. I'll finish the list if I get around to it...

	03-06-2005 19:31									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why is the moon better? The grass isn't greener on the otherside. I have no idea why we would want to live there, except for novelty. That would wear off in a couple months. It's like when I lived in Yosemite.

Why is America better? The grass isn't any greener over here...

They wouldn't necessarily live on the moon. They could live on Mars or on a planet in another solar system. The point is, they would be there, and they would owe their presense to this event.

	03-06-2005 19:38									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why is America better? The grass isn't any greener over here...

That depends on the individual. Usually people come here for political freedom and economic opportunity which can be created anywhere.

quote: They wouldn't necessarily live on the moon. They could live on Mars or on a planet in another solar system. The point is, they would be there, and they would owe their presense to this event.

I doubt if anyone will ever live on other planets. And so what if they did.

	03-06-2005 20:02									#97
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Well, the FACT THAT THEY ARE THERE is entirely dependent on the space race... and it's security for when this rock is just dust.

How dense can you be?

	03-06-2005 20:06									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How dense can you be?

I like to call it living on this planet instead of in some StarTrek fantasy world.

	03-06-2005 20:15									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm going to have to strongly disagree. The space race is useless. Put a man on the moon. Big deal. We now have a bunch of worthless rocks. We have a space station that really is a piece of crap. The laws of physics cannot be altered. The speed of light will never be exceeded. We will never get out of this solar system (to another solar system) Sure the space race helped develop ICBM's, but they were never used. They did shape diplomacy, but in no major way.

Even if we stay in this solar system, I expect maybe half of all human beings to live off-Earth a thousand or two years from now. Earth is a wonderful place, but space is good for some stuff too.

Some people in this thread have talked big about the discovery of the new world, even though only about 1/7th of the world's population lives here and about 1/3rd - 1/4th of all economic activity happens here. Space will compare favorably to this.

Further, pretend space vanished overnight. I bet you would lose a lot of things that you didn't know depended on space to work.

	03-06-2005 20:29									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og NYE you have correctly pointed out that it would be more correct to wse the "space race" for the purposes of this list. Space race IMO is: -first man made object in space - Sputnik (SU) -first man in space - Gagarin - Gagarin (SU) -first man in open space - (SU) -first man made object on another "planet" - (SU) -first man on another "planet" - Apolo (USA) -first space station - (SU) Having this in mind it just seems not right to single out Apolo as the most important part of the space race.

I said Sputnik and Apollo because they form significant book ends to the space race. I would be cool with just calling it The Space Race for purposes of this list.

If you pretend that you live in the year 2500, what will you remember about the 20th century? You will definitely remember Sputnik and Apollo. Maybe Gagarin. Probably von Braun. Goddard may move up in importance, depending on the technology that is in use in 2500, but you probably won't remember him. Same with Korolev.

	03-06-2005 20:33									#101
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I think the first man in space will always be remembered. Now if that is more or less significant than sputnik or apollo......no idea, and I also do not really care about the ranking here

	03-06-2005 20:47									#102
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Well, what's a list for, if you're not going to argue about the ranking?

Besides, the Space Race list will depend a lot on what happens in the future. In some sense, we're still fighting the Space Race. Will Russia be remembered as the pre-eminent spacefaring nation or will it be remembered like Portugal is remembered today with regard to the Age of Exploration -- i.e., not much at all compared to Spain?

	03-06-2005 21:32									#103
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Kuciwalker- but the space colonization thing hasn't happened yet. Therefore, the space race is NOT important for that reason. You can't put things on a top 10 list if they haven't been amazingly important YET.

The space race COULD be important for allowing the possibility of satellite television, cellular phone beaming, etc. and other satellite-fueled technology, but not for prosepctive gains about future colonization.

We frankly don't know to what extent colonization will even benefit us or earth or humans.

It will not be economically beneficial to have colonies other than of miners, etc. for hundreds of years. And indeed, as is currently discovered, only meteorites would probably be worth mining at this point- that is economically viable for the work- because our shuttles are so clunky and use up so much gas (a non-renewable energy source) to get out into space to do little.

Don't get me wrong- I LOVE space and believe that it should be furhter explored- but as is right now, there aren't very many practical benefits due to outdated technology that explores it.


And frankly, I consider the space race a sub-set of the Cold War since without the Cold War, there would be no space race, therefore I would place it under the cold war event.

	03-06-2005 21:34									#104
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quote: Will Russia be remembered as the pre-eminent spacefaring nation or will it be remembered like Portugal is remembered today with regard to the Age of Exploration -- i.e., not much at all compared to Spain?

I'm banking on that, DanS... it's all going to be about China and the US in another 15 years.

	03-06-2005 21:35									#105
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quote: Kuciwalker- but the space colonization thing hasn't happened yet. Therefore, the space race is NOT important for that reason. You can't put things on a top 10 list if they haven't been amazingly important YET.

Booooooooo! We can put whatever we damn well want on our lists, you list fascist!

	03-06-2005 21:37									#106
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Dissident

You might be happy to know that there is evidence that it IS possible to go faster than light-speed... indeed some scientists argue that it is the wavelength that increases infinitely, and not the mass- if that is true than it is possible to make the transition.

Also, studies into quantum foam may provide the answer to FTL (faster than light) travel, at some point in the near future (eg: 100-200 years).

Superstring theory is an interesting proposal...

	03-06-2005 21:46									#107
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Kuciwalker- but the space colonization thing hasn't happened yet. Therefore, the space race is NOT important for that reason. You can't put things on a top 10 list if they haven't been amazingly important YET.

Yes you can. The space race is important because it determines our future.

	03-06-2005 21:47									#108
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Dissident You might be happy to know that there is evidence that it IS possible to go faster than light-speed... indeed some scientists argue that it is the wavelength that increases infinitely, and not the mass- if that is true than it is possible to make the transition. Also, studies into quantum foam may provide the answer to FTL (faster than light) travel, at some point in the near future (eg: 100-200 years). Superstring theory is an interesting proposal...

Or we could stick with STL ships. FTL breaks causality.

	03-06-2005 21:59									#109
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Booooooooo! We can put whatever we damn well want on our lists, you list fascist!

	03-06-2005 22:06									#110
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I would seriously put the formation of the EU as one of the ten most significant events, though it hasn't shown its potential yet.

It's an incredible experiment of having former enemies integrate in a working fashion. It could seriously be a model for a future peaceful political integration. The European construction is probably the third most significant political event of these past 1000 years, after the French and American revolutions.

	03-06-2005 22:25									#111
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Even after all these posts, mine still wins .

Though the Crusades are close to my point, they never would have happened if not for the reforms of Gregory.

	03-06-2005 22:27									#112
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I don't think the EU is a model for future integration. European integration seems more natural now that the world is bigger (or smaller depending on how you look at it). True integration requires that differences fade away. I don't see how that is going to happen world wide just because it is starting to happen in the EU.

	03-06-2005 22:52									#113
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9) War of the Polish Succession
8) War of Jenkin's Ear
7) St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre
6) Battle of Ankara
5) Diego de Landa's auto de fe
4) Sack of Rome, 1527
3) Sino-Indian War
2) Nigerian Civil War
1) Great Smog of 1952
0) The Defenestration of Prague

	04-06-2005 09:34									#115
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: 1) Man walks on the Moon The pinnacle of human achievement, and undeniably what will be most significant to the next millenium. Hmm, I think what will be remembered of tis episode in a thousand year is Gagarin and not the first man on the moon which is only an extension IMO(a great achievement nonetheless).

Gagarin would definitely be on my list if we were picking more than ten items. The Russians slapped a man on an ICBM in a typical rush job. He was one of the bravest people in the space race.

Weren't some of the German V2s pilot capable?

	04-06-2005 09:37									#116
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, what's a list for, if you're not going to argue about the ranking? Besides, the Space Race list will depend a lot on what happens in the future. In some sense, we're still fighting the Space Race. Will Russia be remembered as the pre-eminent spacefaring nation or will it be remembered like Portugal is remembered today with regard to the Age of Exploration -- i.e., not much at all compared to Spain?

Good analogy.

	04-06-2005 09:53									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I agree with your, DC, that the Reformation has to be #1. I would add in the Top 10 (possible at #2): Papal Revolution / Investiture Crisis (1073-1122) - the struggle over who gets to give bishops their regalia ended with the Pope basically having total control over Europe. Gregory VII, in this reforming era, also increased the bureaucratization of the Church (part of his new view of the Catholic Church) creating what could be called the first modern state. The victory of the Hildebrand (Gregory VII's real name) reforms under Callixtus II changed Europe forever. Without them, the Emperor would have continued to rule Christendom and who knows how the future would have turned out without a state system created by the Church which was a model to the emerging kingdoms. Also the Crusades are pretty important .

err- Imran that really doesn't convince me as being more important than the other wars/reformations, etc. though I can see how you connected it as a major predecessor to the decline of the Holy Roman Empire and the subsequent rise of Protestantism and the Reformation.

As an example of a series of novels about the Emperor having continued to rule Christendom- I believe that Alfred Bester wrote a series of 100 page short novels about a time traveler who visited an alterantive timeline that was controlled by a mystical 'church-like' gunpowder possessing group- can't remember the name of it- but it was a disturbing narrow-minded future.

However, if Christendom had reigned supreme- it would almost certainly have fallen to Saladin, or Suleiman the Magnificent during his seige of vienna 1556, or the later one in 1648 that was lifted by jan sobieski of poland.

	04-06-2005 09:56									#118
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St Leo- I see that you've provided us with a list of the most bizarre and unnecessary conflicts

I thought something was up when I saw the WAr of Jenkins Ear, which if I recall correctly, was begun because a british trader showed the king that his ear had been cut off by a spanish person in one of the treaty ports- but then again, he had been there illegally in the first place, so the Brits really had no legal reason for the war declaration.

Then I saw #0- the Defenstration in Prague... and collapsed in laughter

	04-06-2005 09:59									#119
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud err- Imran that really doesn't convince me as being more important than the other wars/reformations, etc. though I can see how you connected it as a major predecessor to the decline of the Holy Roman Empire and the subsequent rise of Protestantism and the Reformation.

It's far more important. Can you imagine a world where the Pope was simply seen as another bishop and the Holy Roman Emperor controlled the Church? Let us not forget that the Catholic Church of the Cluniac Reforms was the first modern 'state' and the Kingdoms adopted that model. Before the Papal Revolution, most law was based on ordeal (passing a physical test) and folk law. The reformists changed things and introduced many modern legal practices, such as the right to question your accuser, etc.

Gregory's two swords theory was one of the first seperation of Church and State theories out there (with the Church reigning supreme, of course). Beforehand they were seen as one with the Emperor at the head of the government and Church.

It's not important in it's 'connection' with other events, but as itself. I mean without the Papal Revolution, Christendom looks far, far, far different. Forget about a Reformation, we may have had different political structures running the world today.

Frankly, I'd put it at #2 in my list and not regret doing so at all.

	04-06-2005 10:05									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes you can. The space race is important because it determines our future.

By that reasoning, I can argue that since cybernetics could provide the ability for people to live longer than ever before that it edges out another thing on the top ten list.

and then I can add cloning...

and then I can add faster than light travel.

heck, why not just add holograms... startrek had them, and consider how they revolutionized life. Matter transmission and all. AI and that stuff, etc.

See- by that argument you could infinitely regress and speculate.

Perhaps they will be popular and good at some point in the future, but they simply aren't that imporant right NOW.

---
"list fascist"... I like that DanS, I like that very much :hmm: