04-06-2005 10:06									#121
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Even if we stay in this solar system, I expect maybe half of all human beings to live off-Earth a thousand or two years from now. Earth is a wonderful place, but space is good for some stuff too. Some people in this thread have talked big about the discovery of the new world, even though only about 1/7th of the world's population lives here

more like 1/5

	04-06-2005 10:08									#122
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Urban Ranger

quote: - The Crusades - The Invention of the Computer Gutenberg's printing press was quite a non-event. Asians had been using movable types for centuries.

Hmm... I'm tempted to put the invention of the computer on the list.

Maybe I should have excluded technological inventions, but it's too late to do that.

As for the crusades- I don't really see how they can compare with the other events on the list. THey just don't seem that important to me.

---
Asians using movable type- but mass producing books in such a way? If you can cite me some sources, I'd be glad to read more on that issue- I know that paper was invented in Asia first, and that they also invented gunpoweder, but had only vaguely heard references to movable type of a primitive type, not even as useful as gutenberg's. But perhaps enlighten me you could?

	04-06-2005 10:12									#123
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quote: Some people in this thread have talked big about the discovery of the new world, even though only about 1/7th of the world's population lives here

DanS- population numbers alone don't make something important.

Here's the reasons that the discovery was important.
1.) Completely altered European economics. Spanish inflation with gold, England enriched as well. Colonies.
2.) COmpletely altered the course of Amerind development
3.) America is the economic powerhouse of the 20th century and early 21st (at least until Europe and Asia get their acts together ... which will happen eventually.) Basically the world has become americanized. America's actions effect everything. More people know the name of america's leader than any other political leader in the world. I think that states something about relative importance.
4.) Without American involvement in WWII- all of europe would either be Nazi or Soviet.
5.) WIthout american involvement in WWI- the stalemate might have been assured and no punitive peace might have been imposed on Germany and thus no WWII would have been necessary.
6.) American Hollywood cultural colonization of the world

etc.)

	04-06-2005 10:21									#124
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Notyoueither

quote: The Peace of the Sword, Monguls of the 13th and 14th centuries They did more than pillage and burn. The Monguls created a path between the Orient and the Mediterranean where trade could begin to blossom again. Trade, rich people, surplus cash and the ability to fund thinkers and artisans would become important elements in Italy before long. The Caliphate in Spain and the Fall of Constantinople, 1453 What the devil could they have to do with each other? Well, both the struggle for Spain and the rise of the Ottomans resulted in 'lost' knowledge of the Romans and Greeks returning to Italy and Northern Europe. Humanism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment... they follow like ducklings in a line following their mother.

I don't know so much about the greatness of the former, but the latter is definately important in the development of European and WEstern philosophy and thought! It helped people move away from scholasticism into more advanced sorts of belief and inquiry.

I like how you combined a lot of the events. Personally I may not combine them as broadly as you did- but it made for a nice neat little list there

Vince

quote: 6. Magna Carta.

Another good point there.

Imran

quote: Before the Papal Revolution, most law was based on ordeal (passing a physical test) and folk law. The reformists changed things and introduced many modern legal practices, such as the right to question your accuser, etc.

Still doesn't convince me enough to make the top ten, but I appreciate your explanation. It is very well written and researched. Thanks for talking. As someone has already stated- this thread is for debating Maybe you convinced someone else of its immense importance!

	04-06-2005 10:23									#125
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Here's my personal list revised based upon what people stated. (I separated it into 10 events and 5 inventions)

*Changes: Added 4 inventions, moved Printing press to inventions, moved WWI to combine with the collapse of colonialism, added Industrial Revolution, added Napoleoanic Conquests, added Space Race to combine with the Cold War.
---


1.) Protestant Reformation (Years)
Challenged people to think for themselves, broke the church's control over the faith/thoughts of people. Provided an alternative powerbase in Europe. Led to mercantilism and the expansion of European Power.

2.) Fall of Constantinople (1453)
Forced the seeking of alternative trade passages that eventually led to the discovery of the new world.

3.) Napoleoanic Conquests (1801-1815)
Spread the ideals of individual liberty throughout the European continent. Created the modern state-system.
Created a more enlightened peasant army with mass conscription.

4.) World War II (1939-1945)

5.) The Cold War (1947-1990)/ The Space Race
Set up the current geopolitical system of today- the struggle between the middle east and the US, and other spheres of influence.
Also led to man entering space, which has led to satellites, cellphones, and other amazing inventions.

6.) Foundation of the United States of America [Struggle for Independence] (1774-1791)
...Providing a model for all future revolutionary movements- IE the French Revolution, later Latin American revolutions, showing that such a thing could be done. Also, like the founding of Islam and the establishment of a continent-spanning Caliphate, the eventual evolution of Democracy and the creation of a United States wholly independent from Britain was not inevitable. Finally, America, as the Dominant Superpower has destroyed governments, set up puppets and generally interfered in financial markets and everything everywhere.

7.) Industrial Revolution

8.) WWI and the Collapse of Colonialism/Imperialism (1919-1970s)
The destruction of the colonial order, beginning with the destruction of the Austrian and Ottoman Empires and disintegration of the Russian set into motion national indepence movements, power struggles, and wars that continue on today. Past Imperial policies, like Ghenghiz Khan's policies, changed the outlook and the progress of nations far and wide. The development of nearly all former colonial empires today has to deal with the past and confront westernization and globalization in the light of former wrongs.

9.) Ghenghiz Kahn and successive Mongol Conquests in Europe/Middle East/India/Asia (1258-1340)

10.) Establishment of Communism in Russia (1918)
Directly leading to the Cold War and providing the world with a practical example of a practical alternative to Capitalism. An imperial empire spanning two continents.

--- 5 Inventions that Changed History
1.) Invention of the Printing Press
Such a method for the dissemination of ideas led to the ability of Martin Luther to spread his message to the people and gave heretics more ability to gain popular support. The printing Press was a major democratizing force in the world. As the power of the press became available, the plurality of voices began to effect the world on a much larger scale.

2.) Invention of Electrical Generation (Nikolai Tesla/Thomas Alva Edison/James Watt/et. al.)
Without electricity, there would never have been any computers.

3.) INvention of the Computer
Completely changed the way of doing business and the pace of life.

4.) The Internal Combustion Engine
Car and Train. What more needs to be said.

5.) Telephone (Alexander Graham Bell)
Communicate faster than ever before!

	04-06-2005 10:28									#126
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quote: Still doesn't convince me enough to make the top ten, but I appreciate your explanation. It is very well written and researched.

Bah . The only events that can even COMPARE in changing history in the last 1000 years (as in the world looked completely different before and after the event) are the Protestant Reformation and World War II.

I'd think the Crusades, at least, would make the list in some fashion (and they were the end of the Papal Revolution, as Urban II was in the tradition of Gregory).

	04-06-2005 10:35									#127
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud 4.) The Internal Combustion Engine Car and Train. What more needs to be said.

Planes?

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud 5.) Telephone (Alexander Graham Bell) Communicate faster than ever before!

Telegraph paved the way for that.

I would add Radio to your list. The age of wireless communications began. Paved the way for radar, TV, communication satellites, radio telescopes, and about everything else wireless.

	04-06-2005 10:37									#128
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And how about the invention of gunpowder... when it was actually used as a military weapon?

	04-06-2005 10:48									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And how about the invention of gunpowder... when it was actually used as a military weapon?

AFAIK, the Chinese did not use it as a weapon.

	04-06-2005 10:59									#130
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That's my point.

	04-06-2005 15:21									#131
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither would become important elements in Italy before long. The Caliphate in Spain and the Fall of Constantinople, 1453 What the devil could they have to do with each other? Well, both the struggle for Spain and the rise of the Ottomans resulted in 'lost' knowledge of the Romans and Greeks returning to Italy and Northern Europe. Humanism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment... they follow like ducklings in a line following their mother. The Reformation and the Printing Press, 15th and 16th centuries These aren't two events, but an event and the consequences. The power of the Catholic clergy to be the keepers of the Word was broken by the advent of movable type, and into the breach poured more cheaply produced literature. Pluralistic societies and literate populations would be the eventual outcomes.

Actually trade between the Cordoban Caliphate and western Europe, and between the northern Italian trading cities (Genoa, Venice, Florence) and Fatimid/Ayyubid Egypt and the Ottoman Empire had been responsible for the transmission of many Greek texts (and translations of Arab/Jewish originals).

Greek and Latin originals were known in many of the monastic houses in northern Europe founded by Irish monks long before the Renaissance.

The fall of Byzantium to the Christian Fourth Crusade had resulted in the loss of many works of art and manuscripts to the Western Christian powers, especially Venice.


The impact of the printing press on the majority of the population was actually rather limited- many rural areas long after Luther's death were functionally illiterate. Its main impact was on cultured already literate townspeople.

The loss of power of the church was already under way when the printing press appeared (French and Spanish monarchs appointing bishops themselves for instance) and several heretical movements (the Hussites in Bohemia, the Lollards in England, the Waldenses in France and Switzerland, and the Albigensians in Provence) had previously challenged the established church.

Why Luther succeeded is down more to the growth of a feeling of nationalism in places such as Denmark, Scotland, England, various German states, the Low Countries, Sweden.

It's worth noting that Protestant churches of Lutheran or Calvinist confessions are also associated withnational struggles against foreign overlords, or with national self-determination- Scottish Calvinism against a French Catholic Regent and Catholic/Anglican England, the Dutch Calvinists against Catholic Spain, German Lutheranism against a Catholic Holy Roman Emperor (and a Saxon Lutheran Elector against an Archbishop from then Catholic Brandenburg), Sweden against Denmark, Anglican England against the 'foreign' Pope in Rome.

Admittedly, once the Reformation had begun, the printing press was a great aid in its success, but the presses had also widely distributed the works of Erasmus of Leyden, Luther's theological enemy.

	04-06-2005 15:30									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And how about the invention of gunpowder... when it was actually used as a military weapon?

Arabs used gunpowder in ceramic grenades in the Middle East.

" These discoveries shed further light on a unique Arab manuscript brought to the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris in the mid-19th century and titled The Book of Horsemanship and the Art of War. Written in 1285 by Najm al-Din Ahdab, a Syrian officer, the book is packed with information on how to distill oil to make kerosene; how to prepare explosives from gunpowder; how to fit the multiple fuses into the various kinds of "naphtha pots"; and even how to build "flying fire"—rockets! The author includes sketches of the weapons he mentions, and one is indeed a crude missile armed with a "naphtha pot" . "

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/iss...oil.weapons.htm

The Chinese are frequently given the credit for 'inventing' or discovering gunpowder, but more recent research seems to indicate it was more the work of Sogdian monks.

The Southern Sung are recorded as having used explosives against the Mongols in the mid thirteenth century.

	04-06-2005 17:02									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Asians using movable type- but mass producing books in such a way? If you can cite me some sources, I'd be glad to read more on that issue- I know that paper was invented in Asia first, and that they also invented gunpoweder, but had only vaguely heard references to movable type of a primitive type, not even as useful as gutenberg's. But perhaps enlighten me you could?

The one authorative source is Joseph Needham's Science and Civilisation in China though Robert Temple's book should also have the information.

	04-06-2005 17:04									#134
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	05-06-2005 02:31									#135
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Thanks Urban Ranger,

I'll look for those titles next time I'm at the library!