06-06-2005 05:05									#31
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exactly as predicted

	06-06-2005 08:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Ask me again in five years and I may change my mind, but since Tiananmen, the Chinese government has a reasonably good report card from me.

Well, there was that little incident where the Chinese jet crashed into our intelligence place over international waters, and then seized our plane because we were forced to make an emergency landing.

And they do use a lot of prison labor and child labor to produce cheap goods. Just last month, there was a story about a group of teenage girl workers who were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes. They were buried so quickly that no one noticed that three were still alive. Their parents exumed their bodies to find scatch marks on the inside of the coffins as well as dried barf.

Not my favorite country.

	06-06-2005 08:31									#33
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quote: Well, there was that little incident where the Chinese jet crashed into our intelligence place over international waters, and then seized our plane because we were forced to make an emergency landing.

Y'know... everyone else in the world thought you deserved that. Let me ask you what response a Chinese plane patrolling and spying on the US coast would have received.

The Chinese pilot died. Your lot at least got away with your lives, and you were in their neighbourhood engaged in espionage against them. Yet you are supposed to be the victims here. Give me a break...

That's the problem with you Americans, you think you are so special that the rules don't apply to you.

quote: And they do use a lot of prison labor and child labor to produce cheap goods. Just last month, there was a story about a group of teenage girl workers who were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes. They were buried so quickly that no one noticed that three were still alive. Their parents exumed their bodies to find scatch marks on the inside of the coffins as well as dried barf.

Americans are not the people to be lecturing others about prison labour. And I think this sucks... which foreign corporations did these girls work for, and how many Americans use the cheap products they make?

	06-06-2005 08:37									#34
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quote: The Chinese pilot died. Your lot at least got away with your lives, and you were in their neighbourhood engaged in espionage against them. Yet you are supposed to be the victims here.

He rammed us.

	06-06-2005 08:40									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The Chinese pilot died. Your lot at least got away with your lives, and you were in their neighbourhood engaged in espionage against them. Yet you are supposed to be the victims here. Give me a break... That's the problem with you Americans, you think you are so special that the rules don't apply to you.

Not espionage but intelligence gathering. It's legal to gather intelligence in international waters -- Soviet trawlers used to do it all the time.

The Chinese pilot flew recklessly and crashed into us. His death is a tragedy, but it wasn't our fault.

	06-06-2005 08:41									#36
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quote: He rammed us.

According to what your lot said. He's dead and can't speak for himself.

What were they doing there anyway. ****ing spying on the Chinese, that's what. I can only imagine the response the Chinese would receive if they did the same.

Self righteous hypocrites.

	06-06-2005 08:48									#37
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quote: Not espionage but intelligence gathering. It's legal to gather intelligence in international waters -- Soviet trawlers used to do it all the time.

Nice little semantic game. If Chinese aircraft routinely did the same to you, you'd whine like stuck pigs.

quote: The Chinese pilot flew recklessly and crashed into us. His death is a tragedy, but it wasn't our fault.

So says you. As I said, he's dead and can't speak for himself. Even if this is true, why must it be a reflection on the whole Chinese government?

I don't care who's fault it was. You are trying to push all the blame onto the Chinese.

	06-06-2005 08:49									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: He rammed us. According to what your lot said. He's dead and can't speak for himself.

Use your common sense. We're flying a big old plane which is about as manuevable as a bus. He's in a fast, highly manuverable fighter buzzing us. Who do you think ran into who?

quote: What were they doing there anyway. ****ing spying on the Chinese, that's what.

Gathering intelligence, that's what. Spying is illegal, gathering intelligence over international waters is legal.

quote: I can only imagine the response the Chinese would receive if they did the same.

We'd grumble about them the same way we, for decades, grumbled about the Soviet trawlers.

quote: Self righteous hypocrites.

For that, talk about Secretary Rice lecturing the Arab states about trafficking in human beings the same day a slave labor camp is discovered in Florida.

	06-06-2005 08:52									#39
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It just ocurred to me . . . . .



Agathon is not making any sense in this thread.

	06-06-2005 08:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun It just ocurred to me . . . . . Agathon is not making any sense in this thread.

... as opposed to the other threads in which he does make sense?

	06-06-2005 08:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler And they do use a lot of prison labor and child labor to produce cheap goods. Just last month, there was a story about a group of teenage girl workers who were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes. They were buried so quickly that no one noticed that three were still alive. Their parents exumed their bodies to find scatch marks on the inside of the coffins as well as dried barf.

Yes, there is a problem with child labor in China, but simply blaming the government is simplistic.

The problem is caused:
- lack of government resources available to enforce child labor laws;
- poor families deciding to send their children to work instead of school;
- unscrupulous business people.

Child labor is common in all economically under-developed countries. It is not a China problem. It is a poverty problem.


From an LA Times story about that case:

...

"The Chinese government officially forbids children under 16 from working, but critics say it does little to enforce the law. Statistics are hard to come by, but in some estimates, as many as 10 million school-age children are doing their part to turn China into a low-cost manufacturing powerhouse.

...

"In principle, China is committed to ending child labor. According to the International Labor Organization, China has ratified two ILO conventions on labor practices. Convention 138 forbids minors under 15 from working. Convention 182 bans the worst forms of child labor, including prostitution and slave labor.

"But this is a country where making laws is much easier than implementing them. Youths desperate to help their families or simply tired of village life can easily lie about their age and use fake identity papers. Employers eager to hire them for their nimble hands and low cost often don't bother to check.

"This is a society in transition," said Hans van de Glind of the ILO's office in Beijing, who is working with the Chinese government on a pilot project to prevent trafficking of girls for labor exploitation. "The intention is there to make progress."

	06-06-2005 08:57									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yes, there is a problem with child labor in China, but simply blaming the government is simplistic. The problem is caused: - lack of government resources available to enforce child labor laws; - poor families deciding to send their children to work instead of school; - unscrupulous business people. Child labor is common in all economically under-developed countries. It is not a China problem. It is a poverty problem. From an LA Times story about that case: ... "The Chinese government officially forbids children under 16 from working, but critics say it does little to enforce the law. Statistics are hard to come by, but in some estimates, as many as 10 million school-age children are doing their part to turn China into a low-cost manufacturing powerhouse. ... "In principle, China is committed to ending child labor. According to the International Labor Organization, China has ratified two ILO conventions on labor practices. Convention 138 forbids minors under 15 from working. Convention 182 bans the worst forms of child labor, including prostitution and slave labor. "But this is a country where making laws is much easier than implementing them. Youths desperate to help their families or simply tired of village life can easily lie about their age and use fake identity papers. Employers eager to hire them for their nimble hands and low cost often don't bother to check. "This is a society in transition," said Hans van de Glind of the ILO's office in Beijing, who is working with the Chinese government on a pilot project to prevent trafficking of girls for labor exploitation. "The intention is there to make progress."

Ya know, China doesn't seem to have nearly as much trouble enforcing laws against dissidents... maybe they don't want to enforce the child-labor laws?

	06-06-2005 08:59									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker ... as opposed to the other threads in which he does make sense?

Young Jedi, one must never become overly cynical of other people's capability to overcome being nonsensical. Shall you give into cynicism, it is one step closer to the temptations of the dark side.

	06-06-2005 09:00									#44
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quote: ^^^I don't know for a fact that UR lives in China. Common sense would suggest that he does, considering the nature of his posts and whatnot, but the authorative (heh) answer would have to come from UR himself.

AFAIK

I've read, I think

UR is a manager or some kind of administrator at some computer or IT-related company/business/department/whatever
UR is in Hong Kong
UR was born and all his family is in Northern China
UR alone moved from that family to Hong Kong
UR has been in China all his life
UR has friends that work in the factories a bit further inland. Dunno if they are the sweatshop laborers, professionals, or bosses.

But that's all I think he has ever posted about himself.

*It might be Shanghai instead of Hong Kong.

	06-06-2005 09:02									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Young Jedi, one must never become overly cynical of other people's capability to overcome being nonsensical. Shall you give into cynicism, it is one step closer to the temptations of the dark side.

The Dark Side

	06-06-2005 09:03									#46
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That does it -- turn in your light saber. You are a disgrace.

	06-06-2005 09:06									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai To a much, much, lesser extent, but still disgusting are the certain trolls here who use the tragedy as a cover for their ongoing anti-Chinese racist tirades which can be summed up as: China is evil and Chinese people are scum who are "all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy."

Why is it that I always see you painting Americans with the same brush, then go on a rant like this?

	06-06-2005 09:06									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ya know, China doesn't seem to have nearly as much trouble enforcing laws against dissidents... maybe they don't want to enforce the child-labor laws?

And maybe China want to enforce the laws, as can be seen in the pilot project on child trafficking mentioned in the article.

The problem is money. The factory owners can bribe local officials. It happens all the time. Dissidents usually don't have the money for bribes.

The corruption is part of the transition into a market society. If the change is done quickly, which many people here advocate, then there is a risk of ending up like Russia. If it is done methodically, as advocated by people like Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel-winner in economics, then fewer problems are created.

	06-06-2005 09:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yes, there is a problem with child labor in China, but simply blaming the government is simplistic. The problem is caused: - lack of government resources available to enforce child labor laws; - poor families deciding to send their children to work instead of school; - unscrupulous business people. Child labor is common in all economically under-developed countries. It is not a China problem. It is a poverty problem.

I'll agree with you if you change the penultimate sentence to: "It is not strictly a China problem."

	06-06-2005 09:08									#50
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We're not talking about the transition to a market society. We're talking about the transition to a government that doesn't run over protesters with tanks.

	06-06-2005 09:12									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Why is it that I always see you painting Americans with the same brush, then go on a rant like this?

Your statement is completely wrong.

I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans.

I treat the American posters here as individuals. Some I find intelligent, some I don't.

There are aspects of American society that I praise, and some aspects that I condemn.

And that's a big difference between myself and the anti-China crowd here. I'll talk about the pros and cons of the US, and China, while the anti-China crowd takes a black and white view - US good, China bad.

	06-06-2005 09:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler I'll agree with you if you change the penultimate sentence to: "It is not strictly a China problem."

So you believe that it only happens in China?

	06-06-2005 09:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Your statement is completely wrong. I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans.

You used the American-bombing-Canadians story to take many potshots at "Americans".

	06-06-2005 09:17									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker We're not talking about the transition to a market society. We're talking about the transition to a government that doesn't run over protesters with tanks.

It's the same thing.

I wish that China could transform itself overnight so that people here had the same democratic rights and protections as in the United States. But it's not going to happen overnight because it is impossible to make that quick of a change.

What's important is whether there is fundamental, true change.

We know there is change, but is it happening fast enough? This is where Tiananmen Square comes into play. If the Chinese government acknowledged its mistakes then that would send a clear signal that it is committed to making government reforms.

	06-06-2005 09:18									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It's the same thing.

You're saying that capitalism is necessary for liberty?

Hell, even I admit it's possible to have a semi-communist state that doesn't run protesters over with tanks...

And they aren't the same thing, since China has seen economic growth by leaps and bounds since 1989, but very little progress in the human and political rights arena...

	06-06-2005 09:20									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So you believe that it only happens in China?

No, as you assert, it probably happens in most if not all impoverished countries.

However, this does not absolve the Chinese government from culpability. They need to direct more resources to the problem, and they need to root out any corruption which contributes to the problem.

But there's plenty of blame to go around:
For the parents who send their children into this situtation.
For the businessmen who exploit the children.
For the customers (including those in the U.S.) who buy the goods made by children.

	06-06-2005 09:20									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Your statement is completely wrong. I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans.

quote: What happened to you America? You should be, and could be a shining example of democracy, but instead you lower yourself to the likes of Saddam, Myanmar and China. Bringing freedom to the world, Bull ****

quote: Shame on you America, shame on you.

	06-06-2005 09:21									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You used the American-bombing-Canadians story to take many potshots at "Americans".

No, I took potshots at the American pilots, and the American government for failing to prosecute them. I never said anything like all Americans are Canadian killers.

I also wrote several posting saying that the pilots deserved a trial so that they could put forth their defence that being forced to take drugs influenced their decision.

More than that, I said the primary goal was to find ways to reduce the chances of it happening again.

The anti-China crowd would simply say "It's their fault."

	06-06-2005 09:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What happened to you America? You should be, and could be a shining example of democracy, but instead you lower yourself to the likes of Saddam, Myanmar and China.

Yes, and I was talking about the country and in the same thread I wrote:

"This is what pisses me off so much. Most Americans I know are decent people. They believe and have what most people in the world would cherish as true and valuable. And then the US government squanders and abuses this greatness."

Again, far different from the anti-China crowd.

	06-06-2005 09:33									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler However, this does not absolve the Chinese government from culpability. They need to direct more resources to the problem, and they need to root out any corruption which contributes to the problem.

I agree completely.

The problem is how much resources does a government of a developing country have to spend on tackling this problem?

I think China probably could, and should spend more, but we're getting into a grey area. Would $1 million more be enough, or $2 million? How many extra policemen are needed to investigate the crimes? How many more lawyers and judges are needed?

I don't know.