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DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 13:14
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Tiannanmen Massacre Anniversary Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiap...reut/index.html

quote:

China keeps close eye on dissent
Friday, June 3, 2005 Posted: 11:02 PM EDT (0302 GMT)

BEIJING, China (Reuters) -- Tight security blanketed China's capital on Saturday, the 16th anniversary of the bloody end to the Tiananmen Square democracy movement, with the leadership fearful of any protest that could threaten its grip on power.

Uniformed and plainclothes police fanned out around the square and dissenters were kept under guard in their homes for the date made more sensitive this year by the death of Zhao Ziyang, a top leader who was ousted for sympathizing with the student demonstrators.

Hundreds were killed on the night of June 3-4, 1989, when troops and tanks rolled into Beijing and, in the face of opposition from the city's residents, seized control of the square that had been occupied by student demonstrators.

The movement was sparked by the death of purged reformist party chief Hu Yaobang, a worrying memory for the Communist leadership concerned that Zhao's death under house arrest in Beijing could have a similarly galvanizing effect.

But prosperity brought by three decades of economic reforms has dimmed discontent, and sporadic protests by rural poor are quickly put down.

Nonetheless, the sensitivity of the date was underscored by remarks made by China's Foreign Ministry spokesman this week that indicated the government would not consider changing its verdict on the wave of activism in the spring of 1989 it has dubbed a counter-revolutionary rebellion.

"China's development in various areas, the advance of reforms, the expansion of the opening up and the strengthening of democracy and rule by law, have all proven the decision made at that time was right," Kong Quan told a news briefing.

In the past year China has also closed journals, stifled academic debate and detained journalists, most recently a Hong Kong-based reporter for Singapore's Straits Times, in signals that President Hu Jintao's government is unlikely to embrace reform.

While China has recovered the international prestige it lost in the violent suppression of the movement, 1989 still hangs over its diplomacy in the European Union's arms embargo.

The EU imposed a ban on arms sales to China following the violence in 1989, and last month urged it to free Tiananmen dissidents and ratify a U.N. pact on civil and political rights to create a climate that would allow it to lift the embargo.

China rejects any linking of the arms embargo with its human rights record.


Another quiet anniversary to the massacre is passing here today. The question to ask is, has anything really changed?

I say that economically, China has changed considerably for the good. But politically it has not changed from 1989 at all, if not becoming worse.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 13:17
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Already a thread on this...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=134577

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 13:19
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Well, this thread is for discussion. Tass, has asked for a silent remembrance in his.

So mods, please keep this open for discussion purposes.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 13:22
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You do know that "silent rememberance" is Tass-speak for "spam me like there's no tomorrow before I'm locked in favor of a legitimate discussion thread" right?

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 13:30
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Anyhoo, I agree. Nothing has changed politically in China. What's-his-face that replaced Zhao doesn't seem to have proven to be all that effective in not being like his predecessor in changing things. Seems like he's still toeing the People's Party line.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 14:19
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[urban ranger] there was no massacre. you have no proof[/urban ranger]

Bosh is offline Bosh
Emperor
Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 14:32
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And you're trying to destroy communism! You criminal!

oh, wait...

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 20:48
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[Agathon]Hah! Those idiot rabble rousers got what they deserved! China is a peaceful nation that would never attack anyone without a good reason.[/Agathon]

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 20:53
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Point me to where I ever claimed that about Tiananmen.

And China is a much better place today than it was 15 years ago.

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 20:55
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Oh relax. You know I'd pick you over Asher any day

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 21:43
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Nice troll though.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:36
  Old Post 04-06-2005 21:53
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Capitalists made them do it.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 00:39
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Does anybody in China still care, or are the Chinese all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy that makes them apathetic to internal problems?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 09:10 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
Oh relax. You know I'd pick you over Asher any day

You prefer the submissive bears to the dominant twinks?

For shame.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Point me to where I ever claimed that about Tiananmen.

And China is a much better place today than it was 15 years ago.


Economically, I'll agree. People can now buy cars and own homes.

But politically, what have we got?

-Newpaper reporters arrested under spurious claims of treason and espionage

-Protests obviously manipulated for political ends.

-Threats if 'wrong' type of protests occur

-Salutes to other another country for violently crackdown on a political protest

-Restriction of information that can be obtained on the net (ie Google)

-The increased presence of URs on internet forums and other places of discussion

This all in the past few months. I don't even want to go into the conversation I had with some people yesterday. It was like arguing with fundamentalists.

Forgot two important ones.

Last edited by DaShi on 05-06-2005 at 09:47

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 09:40
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It is arguing with fundamentalists.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Does anybody in China still care, or are the Chinese all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy that makes them apathetic to internal problems?


I've found that those here that care, or are least aware of problems, are those who are a bit more educated. Usually, because they are interested in more than filling there wallets. But just because they may cite problems, doesn't mean they don't love China. They realize the difference. Unfortunately, a great many don't.

Also, many poor minorities groups and farmers have concerns which can lead to protests when ignored. However, those only reach so far and are easily appeased with a token effort (a speech or law promising to fix it, that never does). At least until the people get frustrated again with the problem not being solved.

Dracon II is offline Dracon II
King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 1970
time: 15:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 10:07
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A chinese diplomat took the anniversary as an opportunity to seek asylum in Australia. He claims that China has many spies that keep tabs on dissidents in China and Chinese citizens staying in Australia. My girlfriend is chinese.... maybe she's a spy

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 10:39
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Take her out, just in case

Dracon II is offline Dracon II
King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 1970
time: 15:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 12:37
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She's been modifying the kitchen sink to accomodate a human head underneath the tap... which is dripping conspicuously....

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 13:21 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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Hmm. How many others folks — other than UR — from China post at 'Poly? I mean genuine I-was-born-in-China-and-live-there-to-this-day types? And would UR have to turn them into the authorities if they started talking Chinese politics at 'Poly?

Gatekeeper

mindseye is offline mindseye
King
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 17:41
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There was another Chinese guy, Phoenixcager, who lived in Hong Kong I believe. That's the only one I know of.

If you want to mingle online (in English) with PRC Chinese, go to China-based blogs (by foreigners or locals). Plenty of mainland posters there.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 17:46
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Phoenixcager is Singapore.

Dracon II is offline Dracon II
King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 1970
time: 15:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 17:53
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My girlfriend frequents mainland chinese forums such as xici.net, paowang.com, and tianyaclub.com... I don't know what the discussion is like (don't know mandarin)... but they seem to like posting funny pictures and stuff like that. I don't get the impression that much serious discussion goes on. But I recall Yanzi saying the other day that some people were saying bad things about Mao.... and some people were posting pictures of Jiang Jieshi... so maybe they're not all CCP automatons.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 22:02
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The massacre in Tienanmen Square was a tragedy and a crime. Until the Chinese government acknowledges its disgusting actions, its attempts to reform itself and established a rule of law, of which there has been some efforts, will be meaningless. The government must admit that what it did was wrong, excessive and brutal.

To a much, much, lesser extent, but still disgusting are the certain trolls here who use the tragedy as a cover for their ongoing anti-Chinese racist tirades which can be summed up as: China is evil and Chinese people are scum who are "all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy."

What's shameful are people who use the tragedy, and trample the memory of what the students tried to do, in order to launch personal attacks.

If you don't like someone, the entire Chinese race or China, well then that's your choice, but don't use Tiananmen as a cover for your hatred.

The students were trying to do something important in their call for a reduction of corruption and more democracy. They ended up paying with their lives. Their deaths should not be minimalized.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:36
  Old Post 05-06-2005 23:57
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Tingkai

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:36
  Old Post 06-06-2005 00:22 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Hmm. How many others folks — other than UR — from China post at 'Poly? I mean genuine I-was-born-in-China-and-live-there-to-this-day types? And would UR have to turn them into the authorities if they started talking Chinese politics at 'Poly?

Gatekeeper


UR was born & raised in China? I didn't know that. I figured he was some American businessman in China or something. Cool.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 06-06-2005 03:33 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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#28 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

^^^I don't know for a fact that UR lives in China. Common sense would suggest that he does, considering the nature of his posts and whatnot, but the authorative (heh) answer would have to come from UR himself.

Blogs ... if only they were my cup of tea, which they're not. I read enough ranting and raving on the forums I visit.

Gatekeeper

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 06-06-2005 03:36
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UR lives in HK.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 06-06-2005 04:05
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quote:
This all in the past few months. I don't even want to go into the conversation I had with some people yesterday. It was like arguing with fundamentalists.


I guess I don't share your pessimistic appraisal of the situation. My background makes me more likely to look at these things from the perspective of the rulers. If I was trying to transition a country from a "communist" system to an open society, I wouldn't introduce personal freedoms immediately. Rather, I'd develop the economic basis for it before gradually easing in greater social liberties. I'd be pretty careful about it too – I wouldn't want what happened in Russia to happen.

Ask me again in five years and I may change my mind, but since Tiananmen, the Chinese government has a reasonably good report card from me.

 
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