06-06-2005 09:35									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You're saying that capitalism is necessary for liberty?

No.

In Asia, capitalism does not lead to full democratic rights. Just look at Singapore, and to a lesser extent Hong Kong.

	06-06-2005 09:37									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai No. In Asia, capitalism does not lead to full democratic rights. Just look at Singapore, and to a lesser extent Hong Kong.

Or China...

Thank you for just refuting your statement that "It's the same thing".

	06-06-2005 09:59									#63
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When I said it was the same thing I was referring to the process of making reforms of any type.

Again, it is impossible to reform a system overnight.

	06-06-2005 10:11									#64
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China is building a submarine fleet. It would appear that one less submarine a year could easily fund a large number of anti-child labor police.

	06-06-2005 10:18									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai When I said it was the same thing I was referring to the process of making reforms of any type. Again, it is impossible to reform a system overnight.

Yes, well, it's been 5,844 nights.

	06-06-2005 10:43									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The massacre in Tienanmen Square was a tragedy and a crime. Until the Chinese government acknowledges its disgusting actions, its attempts to reform itself and established a rule of law, of which there has been some efforts, will be meaningless. The government must admit that what it did was wrong, excessive and brutal.

Strange, a year ago, you wholly supported the massacre. What changed your opinion?

quote: To a much, much, lesser extent, but still disgusting are the certain trolls here who use the tragedy as a cover for their ongoing anti-Chinese racist tirades which can be summed up as: China is evil and Chinese people are scum who are "all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy." What's shameful are people who use the tragedy, and trample the memory of what the students tried to do, in order to launch personal attacks. If you don't like someone, the entire Chinese race or China, well then that's your choice, but don't use Tiananmen as a cover for your hatred.

That's terrible, but I don't see anyone doing that here. Who are you accusing? And based on what? That's pretty wild. You really need to back it up.

quote: The students were trying to do something important in their call for a reduction of corruption and more democracy. They ended up paying with their lives. Their deaths should not be minimalized.

Last year, you called them an enemy of the people whose rash actions were going to bring down the government.

	06-06-2005 10:46									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And maybe China want to enforce the laws, as can be seen in the pilot project on child trafficking mentioned in the article. The problem is money. The factory owners can bribe local officials. It happens all the time. Dissidents usually don't have the money for bribes. The corruption is part of the transition into a market society. If the change is done quickly, which many people here advocate, then there is a risk of ending up like Russia. If it is done methodically, as advocated by people like Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel-winner in economics, then fewer problems are created.

Good point. I now support the corruption and arrest of dissidents in China.

	06-06-2005 10:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Your statement is completely wrong. I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans. I treat the American posters here as individuals. Some I find intelligent, some I don't. There are aspects of American society that I praise, and some aspects that I condemn. And that's a big difference between myself and the anti-China crowd here. I'll talk about the pros and cons of the US, and China, while the anti-China crowd takes a black and white view - US good, China bad.

I seem to remember arguing with you over America's weight problem. You called all Americans overweight and disgusting. You then tried to cover up accusations of being a racist by claiming that Americans were not a race, but by still adhereing to your extremely offensive remarks.

	06-06-2005 10:52									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It's the same thing. I wish that China could transform itself overnight so that people here had the same democratic rights and protections as in the United States. But it's not going to happen overnight because it is impossible to make that quick of a change. What's important is whether there is fundamental, true change. We know there is change, but is it happening fast enough? This is where Tiananmen Square comes into play. If the Chinese government acknowledged its mistakes then that would send a clear signal that it is committed to making government reforms.

What fundamental changes have occurred since Tiannanmen? This is what this thread is about. Not an attempt to insult other posters, who you disagree with. Why you are not at least warned by a mod, baffles me.

	06-06-2005 11:20									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Again, it is impossible to reform a system overnight.

Former Soviet republics of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia seem to be doing pretty fine, thank you.

	06-06-2005 11:36									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc UR lives in HK.

Well, that counts as part of China. An autonomous sort of part, but a part nonetheless.

	06-06-2005 11:38									#72
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell AFAIK I've read, I think UR is a manager or some kind of administrator at some computer or IT-related company/business/department/whatever UR is in Hong Kong UR was born and all his family is in Northern China UR alone moved from that family to Hong Kong UR has been in China all his life UR has friends that work in the factories a bit further inland. Dunno if they are the sweatshop laborers, professionals, or bosses. But that's all I think he has ever posted about himself. *It might be Shanghai instead of Hong Kong.

UR, International Man of Mystery!

	06-06-2005 17:22									#73
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/i...html?oref=login

quote: Thousands at Hong Kong Vigil for Tiananmen Anniversary By KEITH BRADSHER Published: June 5, 2005 HONG KONG, June 4 - Tens of thousands of residents lighted white candles at a vigil in one of Hong Kong's largest urban parks on Saturday night to commemorate the 16th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square killings, the latest sign of the emotional hold the event still has here and in mainland China. This year's anniversary follows the death on Jan. 17 of Zhao Ziyang, who was purged as general secretary of the Communist Party after the 1989 crackdown for his reluctance to use force against students and other protesters in and around the square. Organizers put the crowd here at 45,000, while the police estimated it at about half that size. The crowd was visibly smaller than in the last two years, when many in Hong Kong were deeply unhappy with economic stagnation here and the local political leadership. But the turnout was similar to crowds that showed up in the years immediately preceding the Hong Kong government's unsuccessful attempt in 2003 to push through stringent internal security laws sought by Beijing. Britain returned Hong Kong to China in 1997. Commemorating the killings has become a part of many family traditions here. Samy Fung, a 42-year-old elementary school teacher who has attended every vigil since 1989, brought her 8-year-old son, Ho-cheong, to the demonstration and said he had come every year since he was a baby. "I remember a picture of a man standing in front of a tank and blocking it," Ho-cheong said, describing the famous photograph taken long before he was born. Patrick Leung, 55, an interior designer, said he had also attended every year. "Hong Kong people are bound by this emotional event," he said. This year's vigil coincides with a furor over a secret book reportedly written by a retired Communist Party official, Zong Fengmin, based on conversations he had with Mr. Zhao. Mr. Zhao, now regarded sympathetically by many advocates of greater democracy in China, reportedly criticizes the crackdown in the book; he had already been known to be critical of other Chinese leaders' handling of events in 1989, however. A foreign correspondent for Singapore's leading newspaper, The Straits Times, was detained in southern China on April 22 and has been held incommunicado since then, after what his wife has described as an effort to obtain a copy of the book. China's Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that the journalist, Ching Cheong, had confessed to accepting large sums of money to spy for an overseas intelligence agency. His wife, Mary Lau, dismissed the allegation on Friday.

Tingkai, what was the vigil like?

	06-06-2005 18:36									#74
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quote: A foreign correspondent for Singapore's leading newspaper, The Straits Times, was detained in southern China on April 22 and has been held incommunicado since then, after what his wife has described as an effort to obtain a copy of the book. China's Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that the journalist, Ching Cheong, had confessed to accepting large sums of money to spy for an overseas intelligence agency. His wife, Mary Lau, dismissed the allegation on Friday.

An example of China's great progress in the human right arena

	06-06-2005 18:47									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Former Soviet republics of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia seem to be doing pretty fine, thank you.

No you don't.

	06-06-2005 18:49									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ya know, China doesn't seem to have nearly as much trouble enforcing laws against dissidents... maybe they don't want to enforce the child-labor laws?

It's a lot easier to crack down on protestors, who by their nature, are trying to call attention to themselves (as opposed to those using child labor, who are hiding). Child labor users are also dispersed, unlike protestors, who tend to congregate.

	06-06-2005 18:54									#77
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Weak, che.

China could get rid of child labor (well, as much as, say, the US has) if it wanted to. They don't, because it's no harm to the Party and gives them even cheaper labor.

	06-06-2005 18:58									#78
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Doesn't matter. It's far easier to crack down on dissidents for the reasons I mentioned. Your original post makes a comparison that's not valid for the reasons I mentioned, regardless of whether it should be easy for China to crack down on child labor.

	06-06-2005 19:09									#79
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No you don't.

teh expert

	06-06-2005 19:28									#80
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Child labor occurs in factories whose location is known and cannot easily be moved. If you think child labor exists because it is well hidden, you are very naive.

	06-06-2005 19:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Saras teh expert

It's not just Che. Ask Serb or Vagabond. They'll tell you how the Baltics were so much better off under Soviet rule.

	06-06-2005 19:30									#82
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quote: Originally posted by pchang It's not just Che. Ask Serb or Vagabond. They'll tell you how the Baltics were so much better off under Soviet rule.

But they were! Just ask "the people"!

	06-06-2005 19:45									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Former Soviet republics of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia seem to be doing pretty fine, thank you.

Relative to a lot of developing countries, you're right.

There are a number of reasons why these countries are developing and one of the reasons for the success is the small population in each country. All three are what? 6 million people in total.

It's much easier to train a civil service, police, judges, etc for a small population like that so that a government can enforce laws and keep corruption lower.

Britain has 2 police officers per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-B/cri_pol_cap

Using that ratio, for Lithuania's 3.5 million people. the country would need to train and monitor 7,000 policemen. Compare that to China which needs to train and monitor 2.6 million police officers.

Obviously, it will take China much more time to properly train its police.

We can do the same comparison for judges, lawyers, environmental protection officers, labour inspectors, teachers, etc.

Once again, it can't be done overnight.,

	06-06-2005 19:47									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Weak, che. China could get rid of child labor (well, as much as, say, the US has) if it wanted to. They don't, because it's no harm to the Party and gives them even cheaper labor.

The party doesn't need cheap labour, capitalists do.

	06-06-2005 19:48									#85
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Have you taken a good look at the party lately?

	06-06-2005 19:56									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Relative to a lot of developing countries, you're right. There are a number of reasons why these countries are developing and one of the reasons for the success is the small population in each country. All three are what? 6 million people in total. It's much easier to train a civil service, police, judges, etc for a small population like that so that a government can enforce laws and keep corruption lower. Britain has 2 police officers per 1,000 people http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-B/cri_pol_cap Using that ratio, for Lithuania's 3.5 million people. the country would need to train and monitor 7,000 policemen. Compare that to China which needs to train and monitor 2.6 million police officers. Obviously, it will take China much more time to properly train its police. We can do the same comparison for judges, lawyers, environmental protection officers, labour inspectors, teachers, etc. Once again, it can't be done overnight.,

You're right, of course, that it's easier for small countries, but there are ways for big ones to cope as well, as long as there is political will.

	06-06-2005 19:59									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The party doesn't need cheap labour, capitalists do.

When the Party is the government is the capitalist...

	06-06-2005 20:00									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Relative to a lot of developing countries, you're right. There are a number of reasons why these countries are developing and one of the reasons for the success is the small population in each country. All three are what? 6 million people in total. It's much easier to train a civil service, police, judges, etc for a small population like that so that a government can enforce laws and keep corruption lower. Britain has 2 police officers per 1,000 people http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-B/cri_pol_cap Using that ratio, for Lithuania's 3.5 million people. the country would need to train and monitor 7,000 policemen. Compare that to China which needs to train and monitor 2.6 million police officers. Obviously, it will take China much more time to properly train its police. We can do the same comparison for judges, lawyers, environmental protection officers, labour inspectors, teachers, etc. Once again, it can't be done overnight.,

Yes, but can it be done over 5,844 nights?

	06-06-2005 20:09									#89
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Have you taken a good look at the party lately?

Point conceded.

But labor is cheap in China, with the exception of Shenzhen.

I think kickbacks are the bigger and more destructive problem, particularly at the local level.

	06-06-2005 20:18									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes, but can it be done over 5,844 nights?

I doubt it.

You do the numbers. How long would it take for a developed country to train 2.6 million policemen?

Or using the U.S. ratios from nationmaster, how long would it take to train 120,000 judges. Or at best guess, 500,000 lawyers?

Think about the resources requires to start up universities, the money, the construction time. And of course to have qualified university students, there needs to be a solid elementary and secondary school system. China has relative good schools in its city, but its relative to the country's economy which is under-developed.

Political will is not enough to overcome the barriers of reality.