06-06-2005 20:24									#91
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker When the Party is the government is the capitalist...

So we're agreed that child labor is a problem created by capitalism.

	06-06-2005 20:40									#92
	Increase Your PM Length

The Party has always been the capitalist, whatever the system. It controls all the capital.

	06-06-2005 20:44									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Child labor has existed for as long as humanity has been human. Only under capitalism have we been able to produce enough to declare child labor unnecessary and undesirable.

	07-06-2005 01:05									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: He rammed us. I can only imagine the response the Chinese would receive if they did the same. Self righteous hypocrites. (...) Nice little semantic game. If Chinese aircraft routinely did the same to you, you'd whine like stuck pigs.

The only reason the Chinese aren't doing it today is because they can't. They simply lack the military capability. If they had it, they would do it. For example, you may recall that a Chinese sub was chased out of Japanese waters a few months ago.

I'll also add that the Soviets did in fact "routinely do the same" for quite some years, using Bear bombers. No American whining, at least as I recall. Just the same kind of cowboy-games that got Wang Wei into trouble.

	07-06-2005 01:21									#95
	Put an end to popups!

Regarding child labor in China, I think basically it is another example of how weak or spotty Beijing's control over much of the country really is.

The central government's leverage is weakest in the poor, rural and remote provinces (that is, in most of the country). It's in these hard-scrabble underdeveloped places where things like child labor can occur, even flourish, under the watch of local cadres -- who typically are somehow personally financially benefitting from the operation (as they would from any major financial activity occurring in their fiefdom).

The central gov't must squirrel away its political capital for things like fighting the SARS outbreak (after it became public, anyway). Otherwise, it's typical "control" is often more like the current "Girls are important, too" campaign happening through much (most?) of the country.

	08-06-2005 10:37									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by pchang Child labor has existed for as long as humanity has been human. Only under capitalism have we been able to produce enough to declare child labor unnecessary and undesirable.

There's a massive difference between a kid working on the family farm and a kid working in a factory.

Families value their children. For factory owners, kids are just a piece of the machinery to be used and then discarded when the kid can no longer do the job.

	08-06-2005 12:31									#97
	Tired of ads?

One would hope so, but the reality often falls quite short of your impression.

	08-06-2005 13:59									#98
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And maybe China want to enforce the laws, as can be seen in the pilot project on child trafficking mentioned in the article. The problem is money. The factory owners can bribe local officials. It happens all the time. Dissidents usually don't have the money for bribes. The corruption is part of the transition into a market society. If the change is done quickly, which many people here advocate, then there is a risk of ending up like Russia. If it is done methodically, as advocated by people like Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel-winner in economics, then fewer problems are created.

The problem is one of focus. China spends enough energy to take care of this problem (or any other you care to name) trying to stifle discussion, dissent, political freedom, etc. ruthlessly. Like the U.S.' war on drugs it is an effort that is wasteful and doomed to fail. Unlike the U.S.' war on drugs it can't even claim a hint of moral authority.

	08-06-2005 14:19									#99
	Get a bigger avatar today!

How much money does China spend on stiffling freedom?

	08-06-2005 18:15									#100
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Are you talking acutal expenditures or opportunity cost missed out on as a consequence of said tactics?

	08-06-2005 18:40									#101
	Got spare money?

Well if they sent every chatroom monitor out to look for child labor....

	08-06-2005 22:17									#102
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hard to send a computer program to look for child labour.

	09-06-2005 11:01									#103
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Does China actually publish those numbers? I wouldn't think so.

	09-06-2005 11:03									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I guess you could just make some up.

	09-06-2005 13:10									#105
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Hard to send a computer program to look for child labour.

Someone has to identify the threat before the program can be written, someone has to write the programs and modify them, someone has to identify any countermeasures that are taken, someone has to intimidate anyone who is caught breaking the unwritten laws, someone has to arrest those who refuse to be intimidated, someone has to hold kangaroo court sessions, someone has to guard the prisoners etc. ad nauseum. And as Ogie pointed out, the greatest costs are the opportunity costs of all this wasted energy by people who are largely better educated than average.

	09-06-2005 15:14									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In terms of monitoring the Internet, China largely uses a passive blocking system.

Yes, resources are used, but we don't know how much. It could be similar to the US war on drugs, or it could be minor, like the amount of time a U.S. cop spends handing out jaywalking tickets.

If those resources were diverted, would it make a significant or insignificant difference. I don't think any of us can say.

Mind you, I don't see any benefits in blocking the Internet, whether it is done in China, Singapore or any other country.

	09-06-2005 20:02									#107
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So its basically a cost with no return and whats more by blocking the internet it prevents necessary information from advancing the culture, society.

Both of these effects are what I meant by opportunity cost.

	09-06-2005 21:03									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai In terms of monitoring the Internet, China largely uses a passive blocking system.

Yes, it's so passive actively monitoring all websites.

	09-06-2005 21:04									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe So its basically a cost with no return and whats more by blocking the internet it prevents necessary information from advancing the culture, society. Both of these effects are what I meant by opportunity cost.

Don't you understand? The internet has profited many people but it also has brought many problems, such as sex, violence and feudal superstitions and other harmful information that has seriously poisoned people's spirits.

	09-06-2005 22:04									#110
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yes, and I was talking about the country and in the same thread I wrote: "This is what pisses me off so much. Most Americans I know are decent people. They believe and have what most people in the world would cherish as true and valuable. And then the US government squanders and abuses this greatness." Again, far different from the anti-China crowd.

You say that but don't really offer an example. No one here that I've seen has called the Chinese people evil or somehow less than westerners yet you continully bring up racisim over and over. Critizing the Chinese government is not being racist. So please provide a specific example of a racist remark against the Chinese people because I don't recall seeing one.

	09-06-2005 22:10									#111
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Saras You're right, of course, that it's easier for small countries, but there are ways for big ones to cope as well, as long as there is political will.

Most important post in this thread. There is no will from the goverment to change.

	10-06-2005 01:45									#112
	Tired of ads?

Sprayber

	10-06-2005 08:20									#113
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes, it's so passive actively monitoring all websites.

That would be an example of passive controls of the Internet. The story effectively says the Chinese government has created a firewall and people want to get through it, then they have to register.


It's the same system used by many corporations who use firewalls to block certain types of websites.

It's an efficient and inexpensive way to control the Internet.

	10-06-2005 08:21									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber So please provide a specific example of a racist remark against the Chinese people because I don't recall seeing one.

Read my first post.

	10-06-2005 08:45									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Your first post cites no example, but instead just makes stuff up. In fact, other posters here as well as myself have often pointed out where you just make 'facts' up. You and UR don't seem to have any accurate information, and when questioned about it, you either ignore it or try to dodge it.

	10-06-2005 08:46									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

He's just trying to learn to become a politician, DaShi.

	10-06-2005 09:00									#117
	Increase Your PM Length

He wants his CCP membership.

	10-06-2005 19:32									#118
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Families value their children.

Well, as long as they are boys, anyway.

If you are a rural Chinese daughter, well, you may be sold, abandoned, aborted before birth, or left to wither away underfed in an orphanage.

In some parts of the country the gender imbalance is now something like 134:100 (male:female).

Some Chinese parents don't really mind if daughter goes away to the big city to become a prostitute - as long as she sends money home.

As the old Chinese saying goes, raising a daughter is like watering your neighbor's crops (i.e. it's a wasted investment).

Beijing is fighting the growing problem, there's the current "Girls are important, too" campaign (I even saw a sign for it in Shanghai, where girls are highly valued). There is also talk of ending the one-child policy due to the unintended effect of gender imbalance.

However, child labor in China is just one tiny aspect of what I consider the most worrisome shortcoming of Chinese culture: Chinese simply treat other Chinese (who aren't valuable to them) like sh*t. You see this daily, manifested in countless ways, great and small. It's so dismaying.

As I've said before in this forum, the worst cases of foreigners exploiting Chinese workers doesn't hold a candle to what the average Chinese boss does to his workers.

As so many lament (I think DaShi in this thread), in China it's the squandered potential of so many Chinese people that really strikes you. China's population should be it's national treasure. If change brings with it increased opportunities for people to lead fufilling lives and contribute meaningfully to society, as opposed to focusing so intensely on how to line one's own pocket no matter the cost to others, China will be an awesome society.

I worry about how easy it will be to change what apears to be a very ingrained attitude, but with so many other things changing so quickly, I keep hoping.

	10-06-2005 19:45									#119
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by mindseye In some parts of the country the gender imbalance is now something like 134:100 (male:female).

I'm most likely not remembering correctly but weren't you going to start a thread stating that the gender imbalance wasn't as big a problem as generally thought.

	10-06-2005 19:45									#120
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai That would be an example of passive controls of the Internet. The story effectively says the Chinese government has created a firewall and people want to get through it, then they have to register.

Eh, no, it's not passive - there has to be a bunch of people to handle all the websites being registered, and there have to be a bunch of people to constantly review registered websites so that they don't have objectionable content ( )