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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm most likely not remembering correctly but weren't you going to start a thread stating that the gender imbalance wasn't as big a problem as generally thought. |
Good memory! It's a major problem, but there are good reasons for hope. I'll summarize:
* Simple economics: as the female shortage grows, females are going to become more valuable. This can already be seen in the increase in kidnapping/selling/buying of brides. If the shortage continues to worsen, I expect a dowry system to appear (re-appear?) in rural areas where the problem is worst. This will materially increase the value of rearing a daughter. Whether it's a dowry system or something else, as long as men desire wives, the value of females must rise if the shortage deepens. Chinese being nature's capitalists, I have great hope that basic economic forces will go a long way to re-establish the equilibrium.
* In developed urban China, the value of girls has risen greatly. Shanghai is a great example. Here, daughters are treated more or less equally with sons (e.g. parents are not less likely to provide a daughter with a college education). These trends may follow development as it spreads through the country.
* As I mentioned before, there is talk of the gov't ending the one-child policy to help diminish the preference for boys.
* Beijing has implemented a pilot program to provide pensions for elderly rural Chinese who have a single child, or have only daughters. I don't know how the program is going, but it's another step in the right direction of removing the root pressures for male preference.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
If you are a rural Chinese daughter, well, you may be sold, abandoned, aborted before birth, or left to wither away underfed in an orphanage.
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A reflection of an agarian society that struggles to feed itself. We similar situation happening in India, for example, and many other under developed economies.
quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
Some Chinese parents don't really mind if daughter goes away to the big city to become a prostitute - as long as she sends money home. 
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You do realize these people are dirt poor. As China moves to more a market economy, the poor must find anyway they can to survive.
quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
However, child labor in China is just one tiny aspect of what I consider the most worrisome shortcoming of Chinese culture: Chinese simply treat other Chinese (who aren't valuable to them) like sh*t. You see this daily, manifested in countless ways, great and small. It's so dismaying.
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Again, you see this in many societies. The manager who fires people because they are no longer useful, homeless people who are ignored, family members cut off and isolated, people being rude and obnoxious to each other, and so on.
It happens everywhere.
quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
As so many lament (I think DaShi in this thread), in China it's the squandered potential of so many Chinese people that really strikes you.
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Squandered?
China has achieved amazing results that have benefitted millions of people.
In the last 20 years, 250 million people have risen from poverty into the middle class, according to the Chinese government. A French bank puts the middle class at 50 million. Even with the lower number this is a phenomenal accomplishment. These people's quality of lives have significantly improved.
Working class incomes have risen signficantly and while many work in sweatshops, many do not.
What it sounds like, however, is that you are applying standards from a economically developed world onto a economically under-developed country.
You remind me of a tourist I once met who complained that the Indians were not spiritual, that all they cared about was making money. I thought, what did she expect? When you're poor in a capitalist society, the most important thing is to make money to put food on the table and a roof over your head.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Eh, no, it's not passive - there has to be a bunch of people to handle all the websites being registered, and there have to be a bunch of people to constantly review registered websites so that they don't have objectionable content (  ) |
Active = police officers spending their days actively surfing the net, actively looking for illegal content.
Passive: build a firewall filter , if someone else wants to get through the firewall, that person has to ask permission. All the government does is build the firewall and approve requests. They're not monitoring the system, every hour, every day. that's quite different from actively searching for illegal websites.
Like I said, the passive system is quite commonly used by corporations that want to fliter out websites for things like sex, gambling, etc., from employee computers.
It's passive, not active.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
The actual number and the nature of all the programs, national and regional, is hard to say. But at the very least, it's far from passive, and many people are involved all over the country.
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If it is hard to say then what indication do we have that there are many involved in controlling the Internet. How many is many?
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Active = police officers spending their days actively surfing the net, actively looking for illegal content. |
Which is what's happening. You have to register to even put up your site, and then the police regularly check the registered websites for content they don't like.
quote:
Passive: build a firewall filter , if someone else wants to get through the firewall, that person has to ask permission. All the government does is build the firewall and approve requests. They're not monitoring the system, every hour, every day. that's quite different from actively searching for illegal websites. |
Bullshit! In the words of the MII, "the internet has profited many people but it also has brought many problems, such as sex, violence and feudal superstitions and other harmful information that has seriously poisoned people's spirits." Does that sound like they'll just ignore the websites once they're registered? Moreover, according to the BBC, "it has developed a system which will monitor sites in real time and search each web address for its registration number. Any that are not registered will be reported back to the Ministry [of Information Industry], the statement said." Exactly what I said - active monitoring of websites.
quote:
Like I said, the passive system is quite commonly used by corporations that want to fliter out websites for things like sex, gambling, etc., from employee computers. |
And the way it works is they generally hire some other company to actively construct the database of permitted and forbidden websites, and to update this list as websites are created and/or changed!
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
A reflection of an agarian society that struggles to feed itself. We similar situation happening in India, for example, and many other under developed economies. |
Yes, but the extremity is much greater in China. This culture still exists among city-dwellers. China doesn't really have a problem feeding itself at this time, even in some of the poorest area. However, I'd like to see some examples of other countries with the same problem.
quote:
You do realize these people are dirt poor. As China moves to more a market economy, the poor must find anyway they can to survive.[//quote]
This is not entirely true. In many small towns in southern China, families send their daughters off to become prostitutes so that they can live a life of luxury. It has little to do with being poor. It's simply greed.
[quote]
Again, you see this in many societies. The manager who fires people because they are no longer useful, homeless people who are ignored, family members cut off and isolated, people being rude and obnoxious to each other, and so on.
It happens everywhere. |
1. Doesn't justify it.
2. It's far more pronounced here. You simply cannot ignore it.
quote:
Squandered?
China has achieved amazing results that have benefitted millions of people.
In the last 20 years, 250 million people have risen from poverty into the middle class, according to the Chinese government. A French bank puts the middle class at 50 million. Even with the lower number this is a phenomenal accomplishment. These people's quality of lives have significantly improved.
Working class incomes have risen signficantly and while many work in sweatshops, many do not.
What it sounds like, however, is that you are applying standards from a economically developed world onto a economically under-developed country.
You remind me of a tourist I once met who complained that the Indians were not spiritual, that all they cared about was making money. I thought, what did she expect? When you're poor in a capitalist society, the most important thing is to make money to put food on the table and a roof over your head. |
There's more to life than money. You have a very simple-minded view that seems to blame everything on capitalism with no support.
quote:
Active = police officers spending their days actively surfing the net, actively looking for illegal content.
Passive: build a firewall filter , if someone else wants to get through the firewall, that person has to ask permission. All the government does is build the firewall and approve requests. They're not monitoring the system, every hour, every day. that's quite different from actively searching for illegal websites.
Like I said, the passive system is quite commonly used by corporations that want to fliter out websites for things like sex, gambling, etc., from employee computers.
It's passive, not active. |
You do realize that they still have to monitor the registered websites as well as hunt down hackers and other violators? Then there's the question of what kind of government would need to do this.
quote:
Try reading it again.
I specifically provided an example of racism. That was the post that read: "Chinese all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy." |
No, you didn't. Spiffor was asking a question, and Tass was being. . .well Tass. Calling them racists on this is insulting and unbased.
quote:
As for the trivilization, we have a thread about a tragedy and the tragedy is then used as a launch pad for attacks on UR. |
He's barely mentioned and in just a humorous way.
The short of it is, you really don't know much about China. You seem to see everything through your capitalist-colored glasses. China is a far different country from any other. Perhaps if you got out of Hong Kong and Macau, lived in the mainland, and wiped the crud from your eyes, you'd see the mistakes in your reasoning.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Bullshit! In the words of the MII, "the internet has profited many people but it also has brought many problems, such as sex, violence and feudal superstitions and other harmful information that has seriously poisoned people's spirits." Does that sound like they'll just ignore the websites once they're registered? Moreover, according to the BBC, "it has developed a system which will monitor sites in real time and search each web address for its registration number. Any that are not registered will be reported back to the Ministry [of Information Industry], the statement said." Exactly what I said - active monitoring of websites.
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I'm only going to explain this to you one last time. Corporate firewalls filter out websites in real-time by looking for keywords. This is done with a computer program, not people checking every website that is visited.
China's firewall will block websites, except for those that have a registration number. The ones with the registration numbers are allowed through the filter. It's a simple system.
This is just the same as corporate firewalls that use keyword seach programs to filter out websites. For example, I worked for a corporation where I needed access to the Hong Kong Jockey Club website. Initially, the firewall blocked the site because it is related to gambling. So I called up the tech support people and asked them to unblock the site, which they did. China's registration system will follow the same system.
Now if you can't understand this simple concept then I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain it to you.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
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Is China using the corporate system you describe?
If so, then people will just avoid using those words that are "banned" and create suitable substitutes for them. Then China will have to hire people to read through every website and identify the neologisms. Of course, if these new words are just redefined common or benign words, then there's the problem of blocking sites that don't violate China's oppressive subversion laws. Of course, this systems begs to ask, why have them register in the first place?
If not, and they just block websites that are unregistered, then people could just alter the content on their site after registration. China will then have to hire people to make sure that registered sites comply with their stringent guidelines.
In addition, both formats have to be concerned with hackers and corruption. Hackers could find there way through the firewall and it's a tempting target to try to take out. Businesses may bribe officials working in this department to block competitors websites, regardless of violations. According to your prior statements about the police system in China, it seems that China is ill-equipped to pull this off properly at this time. Seems like a waste of money to me.
Oh, and seek anger management. You've got issues, dude. 
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The Chinese government will also REGULARLY CHECK ALL THE WEBSITES ON THE REGISTERED LIST TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY SHOULD STAY ON THE REGISTERED LIST. |
Nice story, you've got a future as a fiction writer.
There's nothing in the BBC story that says the Chinese government will be regularly checking websites to decide whether the websites can remain registered.
Making stuff up to suit your discredited argument merely discredits you.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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You're right. What happened?
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
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quote:
China’s Internet filtering regime is the most sophisticated effort of its kind in the world. Compared to similar efforts in other states, China’s filtering regime is pervasive, sophisticated, and effective. It comprises multiple levels of legal regulation and technical control. It involves numerous state agencies and thousands of public and private personnel. It censors content transmitted through multiple methods, including Web pages, Web logs, on-line discussion forums, university bulletin board systems, and e-mail messages. Our testing found efforts to prevent access to a wide range of sensitive materials, from pornography to religious material to political dissent. Chinese citizens seeking access to Web sites containing content related to Taiwanese and Tibetan independence, Falun Gong, the Dalai Lama, the Tiananmen Square incident, opposition political parties, or a variety of anti-Communist movements will frequently find themselves blocked. While it is difficult to describe this widespread filtering with precision, our research documents a system that imposes strong controls on its citizens’ ability to view Internet content.
Unlike the filtering systems in many other countries, China’s filtering regime appears to be carried out at various control points and also to be dynamic, changing along a variety of axes over time. This combination of factors leads to a great deal of supposition as to how and why China filters the Internet. These complexities also make it very difficult to render a clear and accurate picture of Internet filtering in China at any given moment. Filtering takes place primarily at the backbone level of China’s network, though individual Internet service providers also implement their own blocking. Our research confirmed claims that major Chinese search engines filter content by keyword and remove certain search results from their lists. Similarly, major Chinese Web log (“blog”) service providers either prevent posts with certain keywords or edit the posts to remove them. We found also that some keyword searches were blocked by China’s gateway filtering and not the search engines themselves. Cybercafés, which provide an important source of access to the Internet for many Chinese, are required by law to track Internet usage by customers and to keep correlated information on file for 60 days. As a further indication of the complexity of China’s filtering regime, we found several instances where particular URLs were blocked but the domain was accessible, despite the fact that the source of content appeared consistent across the domain – suggesting that filtering may be conducted at a finer level in China than in the other countries that we have studied closely. Moreover, China’s Internet filtering appears to have grown more refined, sophisticated, and targeted during the years of ONI’s testing.
China’s intricate technical filtering regime is buttressed by an equally complex series of laws and regulations that control the access to and publication of material online. While no single statute specifically describes the manner in which the state will carry out its filtering regime, a broad range of laws – including media regulation, protections of “state secrets,” controls on Internet service providers and Internet content providers, laws specific to cybercafés, and so forth – provide a patchwork series of rationales and, in sum, massive legal support for filtering by the state. The rights afforded to citizens as protection against filtering and surveillance, such as a limited privacy right in the Chinese Constitution, which otherwise might provide a counter-balance against state action on filtering and surveillance, are not clearly stated and are likely considered by the state to be inapplicable in this context.
China operates the most extensive, technologically sophisticated, and broad-reaching system of Internet filtering in the world. The implications of this distorted on-line information environment for China’s users are profound, and disturbing. |
I don't know about the rest of you, but only the word "cheap" comes to mind. 
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
A reflection of an agarian society that struggles to feed itself. We similar situation happening in India, for example, and many other under developed economies. |
That's true, but I was responding to your comment that "Families value their children". I'm afraid your further examples don't much help your original statement.
quote:
You do realize these people are dirt poor. As China moves to more a market economy, the poor must find anyway they can to survive. |
Of course that's true, but I think there are few other countries where a mother would wink at her daughter's prostitution as long as it meant money sent home. Don't get me wrong, I personally think there are some major benefits to Chinese culture's frankness towards sexual matters, however I'm not convinced this is a good way to "value" your daughter.
quote:
Again, you see this in many societies. The manager who fires people because they are no longer useful, homeless people who are ignored, family members cut off and isolated, people being rude and obnoxious to each other, and so on.
It happens everywhere. |
Sure, but as far as I personally know, it doesn't happen anywhere else like it does in China. In which other countries would a crowd of 200 come running from blocks away to gape at an accident victim, not one of them willing to lift a finger to help? Really, I could write a long book of examples on this topic, as could anyone who has spent appreciable time in China. Chinese people treat the people they know very well, but strangers are treated as dirt. You might look up Lu Xun's writing on what he called a Chinese "cultural defect".
quote:
Squandered?
China has achieved amazing results that have benefitted millions of people.
In the last 20 years, 250 million people have risen from poverty into the middle class, according to the Chinese government. A French bank puts the middle class at 50 million. Even with the lower number this is a phenomenal accomplishment. These people's quality of lives have significantly improved.(...) |
I absolutely agree, but the benefits you describe are largely the result of the Party losening control a little. The burst of bottled-up energy shows what Chinese could be capable of in a freer society.
However, by waste I was thinking more of all the people in China today who are held back by the political system. For instance, there really are journalists who want to do serious investigative reporting to improve governance, but they are stymied by censors and Party hacks. So instead they end up wasting their talent writing stories about the romantic lives of celebrities. Really, the waste here is widespread and so dismaying.
quote:
You remind me of a tourist I once met who complained that the Indians were not spiritual, that all they cared about was making money. I thought, what did she expect? When you're poor in a capitalist society, the most important thing is to make money to put food on the table and a roof over your head. |
I seriously doubt you have ever in your life been as poor as I have been. There was a time in my life when sometimes I could not afford a 25-cent newspaper. I shared an unheated flat. I remember for a while my lunch budget was sixty cents (in 1980s San Francisco). So please, no lectures on my lack of understanding of poverty.
Last edited by mindseye on 16-06-2005 at 22:37
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
I'm only going to explain this to you one last time. Corporate firewalls filter out websites in real-time by looking for keywords. This is done with a computer program, not people checking every website that is visited.
China's firewall will block websites, except for those that have a registration number. The ones with the registration numbers are allowed through the filter. It's a simple system. |
You really need to take a look at internet censorship in China before you post on this again. My god, the gov't actually announces in the newspaper that there are people actively "policing" the web. The latest announcement was an increase in the new force that patrols chat rooms and discussion boards to post information favorable to the CCP.
Let me say that again: the Chinese gov't itself announces through the Chinese print media that it actively censors the internet. If you disagree, tell it to Beijing.
Here's a translated article. Excerpt:
quote:
This new "news propaganda team" was built up from the propaganda structure in Suqian City. The 26 Internet commentators came from the Suqian City Committee Propaganda Department, the Suqian City District Committee Propaganda Departments and various Municipal departments.
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"The Internet commentators will lead public opinion as ordinary netizens. (i.e. without revealing their official capacity - mindseye) This is important, and it is also the most effective way." Ma Zhichun emphasized. According to the "Practical ideas on Suqian City Internet opinion," the Internet commentators has the option of using the status of official spokespersons when something major breaks out in order to clarify the truth.
The young Lu Ruchao has the job of being the "opinion police" at the Internet chatroom.
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According to the document "Practical ideas on Suqian City Internet opinion," the City Committee Propaganda will establish the "Internet Administration Office" and "Internet News Administration Office" to manage the daily activities of the Internet commentators. There will be periodic communications meetings on news topics. At the end of each year, the job performances of the Internet commentators will be evaluated for the annual appraisals and feedback |
A staff of 26 performs this one aspect of internet "policing" in this one small town. What do you think the numbers are nationally? The gov't says 30,000. I suspect that's a big exaggeration, but it's a major and very active effort.
Last edited by mindseye on 16-06-2005 at 22:39
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10-06-2005 20:12
But you haven't backed up a single claim you've posted. Kuci and I have both proven the necessity of active monitoring of websites. Your claims that a firewall is all that is needed is naive and simply wrong. Now your arguments are descending into insults, which they always do when you lose. And restating the same thing also won't help as it's already been proven wrong. Frankly, I'm curious to see what you will do, because you seem to have run out of tricks and inventiveness doesn't seem to be your strong suit.
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