21-06-2005 20:13									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Um, no. Try again. Freedom from government results only in anarchy. You want government when you get mugged at gunpoint next time. Wrong again. There are different kinds of freedom.

I acknowledge that one can be a slave to another person but that only works when there is a government of some kind that enforces the slavery or otherwise you could escape and be free. But generally speaking the only power that can control you is a government. Therefore freedom is a general reference to a government authority of some kind. I would include in this vested nobility of the Middle Ages, and a fascist and Communist parties in the modern era all of whom had the power over individuals.

	21-06-2005 20:19									#182
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Ned - I am talking about the current state of mental health and it's lack of funding. One of our friends works in the county lockup (the one I quote in my sig, Mr. Dollinger) and we have discussed the problem law enforcement is having with the mentally ill. It's utterly macabre, they are considered competent enough to refuse to stay in a mental instution, but yet they are incompetent enough to end up in jail and resist in ways that forces the police to hurt them or even use deadly force (we had one case where the individual was hitting himself in the head with a tire iron, the police called on him to freeze and he charged them. Tragically, and by necessity, he was shot dead). We have had several shootings of obviously mentally ill people in my city over the last several years, sadly justified in almost every case. If you look at my posts in other threads, I always apportion blame to the left and right. However, remember that the entire defunding of mental hospitals was done with the intent to transfer substantial amounts of the savings to support services. It has not happened, and much of that I can squarely put in the lap of anti-tax, free lunch types who refuse to properly fund that kind of program. When the programs aren't funded, you end up with mentally ill street people who are victimized, violent, and/or dead (they cannot take care of themselves) and who next to immigrants are the second largest source of deadly multi-antibiotic resistant TB in the US. Penny wise and pound foolish beyond a doubt.

I don't see this a problem as a failure to fund institutionalized mental health facilities. I think evened the most rabid wingers would support funding mental institutions if they could help us keep mentally ill people off the streets. The problem, at least in California, is that it is illegal to institutionalize a person who is mentally ill but still exhibits some rationality.

	21-06-2005 22:36									#183
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I think it is really sad that you all have to argue how people should pay for health care and medicine, when the really should never have to pay at all...

	22-06-2005 02:32									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Re: monopolies: And yet you see no problem with state monopolies?

In certain areas, no. It would scare the hell out of me if police, prisons, defence, air and sea control and a couple of others got privatised - the same with health care.

Besides, health care isn't a state monopoly here - we have several private hospitals. They give same high quality in treatment as the public system, and they live mainly on delivering non medical commodities and shorter waiting lists. One thing though, it isn't for free - you pay heavily.

	22-06-2005 02:37									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Ned My reference to communism was a intended to suggest to you where the concept that all outcomes must be equal leads. It had no relevance to Danish politics of today.

Belive me, even though we have public health care, we are farther away from communism than we ever has been since it's invention.

	22-06-2005 02:43									#186
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Belive me, even though we have public health care, we are farther away from communism than we ever has been since it's invention.

Same here. Kind of sad when you think about it...

	22-06-2005 02:47									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Same here. Kind of sad when you think about it...

Errh, uhm, ehh - not really

	22-06-2005 09:42									#188
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Ned - first, my wife has worked with the mentally ill. Professionally, she has a Masters in Art Therapy, and a second Master in Psych, and if she can pass her comprehensive exam she'll get a Ph.D. in Psych. The money is not there, and in many states the anti-tax bandwagon makes it impossible to obtain.

What kind of services? Assisted living and housing, where you have let's say four apartments with one resident assistant living in one unit, and metally ill/mentally handicapped individuals in the other three. Then drugs, nursing care, various forms of occupational and mental health therapy, these all cost money. Find me an anti-tax Republican state supplying all of those. Note at this point I don't believe any state does, but how many Republicans have run on increasing taxes to care for the mentally ill? And most of the Democrats are spineless and won't stand up for the principles their party was founded on. I have more than enough contempt for both groups.

The issue with getting the non-functional but not institutionalizable off the streets is more complex. I've commented before, our little girl's Godmother has two autistic brothers. One is just functional enough to be homeless. I firmly believe revamping the laws, including what constitutes competency, etc. needs to be done to deal with this issue. But if the money is not voted for at the same time, it's a useless gesture.

	22-06-2005 12:18									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Therefore freedom is a general reference to a government authority of some kind.

You must think "freedom" is something that falls from the sky and lands on you. It doesn't work that way.

quote: Originally posted by Ned I would include in this vested nobility of the Middle Ages, and a fascist and Communist parties in the modern era all of whom had the power over individuals.

How do these differ from a state, government, or society?