20-06-2005 20:33									#121
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There IS actually treatments that I guess isn't used much in public hospitals here in europe.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quacker...pics/faith.html

	20-06-2005 21:34									#122
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Like aromatheraphy and homiopathy aren't huge in Europe.

	20-06-2005 21:51									#123
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Might be, but it's not paid by public health care.

	20-06-2005 21:52									#124
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AFAIK, prayer is free.

	20-06-2005 23:58									#125
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat You get funnier and funnier. Do you really belive that euorpean health care is low quality ?

What makes you think that socialized medicine where wages and prices are controlled attracts the best? The US has free medicine in terms of the providers. Free in terms of freedom from you f**king socialists.

	21-06-2005 00:02									#126
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Our mental health system is nonexistant, and shameful. Law enforcement officers and jails are becoming the first line of people dealing with mental illness. However, the proper care for the mentally ill is not cheap and we have this mantra of "taxes are bad" while whining about wanting something for nothing. "You pay for what you get", and "You are your brother's keeper," are sadly out of vogue in US politics, and thought.

We also have system with the likes of the ACLU where mentally ill people were once kept in institutions. But thanks our wonderful ACLU, those so mentally ill or sick (drug addicted) that they cannot fend for themselves are left to wander the streets and get by as best they can. Hence, crime, prostitution and homelessness abound on the streets of our cities.

	21-06-2005 00:11									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If she could feel pain, that means she is still sentient, and retains some brain function.

Wrong. The ability to feel physical pain (which is what Shiavo was capable of at most) is nothing more tan reacting to a physical stimulus.

That is, unless you want to consider insects, certain computers/robots, and certain plants sentient, seeing as they have reactions to what could be considered "pain".

	21-06-2005 00:12									#128
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Boris, don't use "Schindlers". I know you want to combine swindlers and Shaivo, but Schindlers conjures up a Spielberg movie.

	21-06-2005 00:15									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What makes you think that socialized medicine where wages and prices are controlled attracts the best? The US has free medicine in terms of the providers. Free in terms of freedom from you f**king socialists.

Cause health should be measured by the quality of doctors, not the overall health and lifespan of patients...

WAIT!

That's actually BACKWARDS. But hey, who cares!? Right?

	21-06-2005 00:17									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse 100,000 people get killed in Iraq, they don't care One poor woman is taken off life support...

Silly AH. When one poor woman dies, it's a tragedy. When 100,000 people die, it's a statistic.

	21-06-2005 00:19									#131
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword that is just bullshit....i have NEVER EVER IN MY WHOLE LIFE heard of a patient with a strange decease that had to fly to the US to get treated because in the EU they couldnt...

Well of course. If they had a strange death, there would be no point to treating them here. Disease is an illness. Decease(d) is death.

	21-06-2005 00:21									#132
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quote: What makes you think that socialized medicine where wages and prices are controlled attracts the best? The US has free medicine in terms of the providers. Free in terms of freedom from you f**king socialists.

Free as in freedom, not free as in beer. Of course, I vaguely recall you were briefly on the side of SCO against IBM, being against free as in freedom and free as in beer. That has nothing to do with this, though.

===

Free as in freedom, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that the poor here do not have access to the best hospitals and medicine in the world; indeed, at best, they only have access to the average. Still better than, say, Mozambique, but not as good as say, Denmark.

As far as whether socialism is anti-freedom or not, I'd wager to say that aside from taxes, the Scandinavians live in some of the most free as in freedom societies in the world, and not so much in a free as in beer--those high taxes'll kill ya..

	21-06-2005 00:24									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ned We also have system with the likes of the ACLU where mentally ill people were once kept in institutions. But thanks our wonderful ACLU, those so mentally ill or sick (drug addicted) that they cannot fend for themselves are left to wander the streets and get by as best they can. Hence, crime, prostitution and homelessness abound on the streets of our cities.

Come again?

Are you saying that the ACLU kick out the mentally ill from the institutions? Can I have proof?

	21-06-2005 00:41									#134
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Cause health should be measured by the quality of doctors, not the overall health and lifespan of patients... WAIT! That's actually BACKWARDS. But hey, who cares!? Right?

GePap, as I have repeatedly said, I support giving basic health insurance to all.

What I oppose is a government takeover of medicine.

	21-06-2005 00:48									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed As far as whether socialism is anti-freedom or not, I'd wager to say that aside from taxes, the Scandinavians live in some of the most free as in freedom societies in the world, and not so much in a free as in beer--those high taxes'll kill ya..

Freedom means freedom from the government. One does not have freedom if one's wages are controlled by the government.

I can envision a system where everyone is provided health insurance without a government takeover of medicine. The problem is that most Europeans are socialists and cannot abide private enterprise in any form. So I hardly think that European medicine is first rate because I assume (but do not know for certain) that European medicine is "socialist" medicine.

	21-06-2005 00:54									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Come again? Are you saying that the ACLU kick out the mentally ill from the institutions? Can I have proof?

Years ago there was a case here in Kalifornia where the Supreme Court of Kalifornia decided that keeping mentally ill people in institutions against their will was a violation of their constitutional rights. The case occurred in the mid '60s before I moved here, but I heard about it.

There are also many US Supreme Court cases that make illegal so-called vagrancy laws that were once used to keep the streets clean of the homeless. Most of the hopelss cases would end up in institutions of one kind or another in those days.

But no more, thanks to the people who brought those suits: The ACLU.

	21-06-2005 00:57									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What makes you think that socialized medicine where wages and prices are controlled attracts the best? The US has free medicine in terms of the providers. Free in terms of freedom from you f**king socialists.

I see we have a real capitalist here...I am wondering how you can possibly blame a socialist from restricting ones freedom...

Socialists have been called many things...libertarians, libertarian socialists, activists, anarcho-communists, anarchists...but I don't see how you can tell a socialist he is restricting your freedom...considering that some socialists don't even believe in power systems or governments, I really don't think you even understand what a socialist is...

What you fail to realize Ned, is that a good number of scientists care about helping people, not about how much money they make...

In fact, I just read an article in the Discover magazine on MIT, probably the best technical school in the US, and one of the best in the world...most of the students that were questioned for the article said that they care about helping people, not about money, not about wealth, but about helping people by discovering new methods and technologies...

In fact, one of them even said that she wouldn't mind working without pay as long as she could help humanity...someday you capitalists will learn that happiness and freedom are not the ability to enslave thousands of workers under a corporation so that you can sit at top and watch them toil for you...it is unfortunate that currency is still relevate and still exists today...

Some day you capitalists will learn...

	21-06-2005 00:58									#138
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You can't have people declared mentally incompetent in the US?

	21-06-2005 01:18									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You can't have people declared mentally incompetent in the US?

Yes. But, the person has to be really incompetent. People are emotionally incapable of taking care of themselves cannot be involuntarily housed. The ACLU said these people want freedom to roam the streets and seek handouts and the like to live.

Unbelievable!

	21-06-2005 01:19									#140
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Commy, I am fully aware that you socialists use words, like freedom, in different ways that we on the right use the same words.

	21-06-2005 01:30									#141
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quote: Boris, there are millions who are not dying worldwide because the US has the best health care in the history of mankind. What worries me, who does support insurance for all, is a socialist takeover of medicine.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry for not reading this thread any further but this has got to be the APOLYTON QUOTE OF ALL TIME. Years from now we will still spill our beers when someone mentions this. Apolyton history being made and I was there!

Ned, the word "sukkeltje" doesn't even begin to describe you. Thanks for the laugh

	21-06-2005 01:37									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Years ago there was a case here in Kalifornia where the Supreme Court of Kalifornia decided that keeping mentally ill people in institutions against their will was a violation of their constitutional rights. The case occurred in the mid '60s before I moved here, but I heard about it. There are also many US Supreme Court cases that make illegal so-called vagrancy laws that were once used to keep the streets clean of the homeless. Most of the hopelss cases would end up in institutions of one kind or another in those days. But no more, thanks to the people who brought those suits: The ACLU.

ACLU

Both cases were 100% correct. Keeping people against their will in mental illness institutions? Who, today, would advocate such a thing? What if someone said you were mentally ill and you couldn't leave, even though you didn't want to be there?!

Secondly, vagrancy laws are discriminatory to the max. Yeah, we don't want you homeless living on the streets, showing us how we've failed you. Go to the slums so we rich folk don't know you exist!

Really Ned.

	21-06-2005 01:42									#143
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quote: So I hardly think that European medicine is first rate because I assume (but do not know for certain) that European medicine is "socialist" medicine.

You assume a lot don't you?

But you are actually right. Whenever I'm really sick and I don't stand a chance to become Worker Of The Month I may go to see a doctor. But I better not forget to take my Party Membership Card with me or I will be send home. And even with my card I have to wait till the members of the Nomenclatura have had their turn. I wished I was an American

Or a Cuban hahaha...

	21-06-2005 01:44									#144
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He Imran, what happened to you these last five years? I remember you as one of the Neds of 1999. It looks like you have Striker's Disease?

	21-06-2005 01:47									#145
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I just saw some part of 60 minutes involving parallel-imported medicine. In Denmark when you go to the pharmacist to get proscribtion medicine the pharmacists is obliged to offer you a cheaper parallel-imported version if one exists. So if you want to get it cheaper you can. Now the US medi-corporations dont want that. So which system is socialist?

And many of the biggest medical corporations are european. Novo is the second biggest player in the diabetes-buisness, and believe me ours is just as capitalistic as yours

	21-06-2005 01:48									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Freedom means freedom from the government. One does not have freedom if one's wages are controlled by the government.

Freedom does mean freedom from the government, which is why I found the whole Shiavo thing repugnant. After all, it was a governmental intrusion on something that did not require it. If anything, it was abridging freedoms.

	21-06-2005 01:48									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij He Imran, what happened to you these last five years? I remember you as one of the Neds of 1999. It looks like you have Striker's Disease?

Since when was I ever a 'Ned' . I was far more a DinoDoc.

Damn Eurocom's. Can't tell people on the right apart.

	21-06-2005 01:52									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Since when was I ever a 'Ned' . I was far more a DinoDoc. Damn Eurocom's. Can't tell people on the right apart.

Okay, okay, maybe I was exaggerating (sp?). But you can't deny you were a lot more right-wing in those days. But you are right, no one should be called a Ned of course, only Ned.

"...It's the famous Mr. Ned"

	21-06-2005 02:49									#149
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have. There is a reason why so many insanely rich people come to the U.S. to have major procedures done. I was always like, what, don't they have heart specialists in Europe?

queue jumpers

Most Western systems are prioritised by medical need/urgency not wealth.

I'd say Canada has a better health system than the USA and if I was sick I know which system I'd rather be in.

Its just ridiculous what Ned believes about the US health system. Its certainly not the envy of the world, we feel sorry for you if anything.

I never saw a job seeker from Europe cite medical insurance as a reason to take a job.

	21-06-2005 03:05									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What makes you think that socialized medicine where wages and prices are controlled attracts the best? The US has free medicine in terms of the providers. Free in terms of freedom from you f**king socialists.

Must...resist...spare my so I have some left...must resist....damn




Sorry it took some time to answer, but TV3 had a resend of "The Fugitive". My guess is that you fully agree with the means the "bad guys" in this fiction.

Do you really think that doc's and nurses are underpaid here ? That they are fleeing the country to get a job in the US ? You are totally wrong, and my guess is that the same goes for all other west european country. You may have a point in that many medics from underdeveloped countries are going to us, but really, is that anything to be proud of ?

I don't know if you are referring to me when you say " f**king socialists", but I guess that I'm the target. And yes, since you seem to be placed somewhat far right to Attila the Hun, then it is probably right to call me a socialist despite the fact that I am a right winger here. Your political specter seems to indicate that all that are just a little left to the us democrats are commies - maybe even those a little right to those.

The sad thing is that the greatest stupidity from your side is that you think that freee healt care is a hindrance to a better and richer society wich is totally wrong. A healthy population that doesn't have to worry about health care is much better prepared and are a lot more productive than that of your imagination.

If us have had a common health care system, they would have been in a much better situation that they are at present.