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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
What makes you think that socialized medicine where wages and prices are controlled attracts the best? The US has free medicine in terms of the providers. Free in terms of freedom from you f**king socialists. |
That's not true either - our medical specialists charge whatever they like. We also have medical insurance which gives things like a private room and choice of doctor and hospital. You don't have to wait for ellective surgery. The public system is a safety net, there are private hospitals too. But most people got rid of their private insurance because the public system is free and good for the most part. I have private insurance because I have kids.
And it isn't socialism - we choose to have our taxes provide good hospitals and schools, you choose police and battleships and prisons.
Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 21-06-2005 at 03:29
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Freedom means freedom from the government. One does not have freedom if one's wages are controlled by the government.
I can envision a system where everyone is provided health insurance without a government takeover of medicine. The problem is that most Europeans are socialists and cannot abide private enterprise in any form. So I hardly think that European medicine is first rate because I assume (but do not know for certain) that European medicine is "socialist" medicine. |
Please define "socialist" medicine - my guess is that you have no idea what it means in western euroope.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Socialist medicine is where the state hires the doctors, provides the clinics and hospitals and pays for the medicine. |
And what prevents the state to pay high salaries to the staff ?
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Not true at all. I am for freedom. I define right wing as libertarian and cannot abide legalized privilege in any form, which one certainly gets when there is rule by one party and that one party limits its membership. There is no substantial difference on this point between feudalism and communism. |
You are quite rigth except for one thing - both systems think that those who can pay wether it's in money or political ranking are those that should have better treatment.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
What is wrong with monopolies? |
That is just a stupid question, and even you know the answer.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Blackcat, the concept that all outcomes must be equal leads to the dark side of the force: communism. |
What are you talking about ? Currently we have a seriously right wing government here and they could never dream of dropping governmental healt care - the benefits are so good that it would be totally stupid.
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Proteus_MST
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
We have a really great dental scheme run in my town where the government funds dental clinics. You pay a small fee and your kids get an annual dental check up and any remedial work or cleaning done. Its free for welfare recipients. Works very well, clean modern clinics, good treatment. Saves a bundle of cash for families. Not all parts of health system work as well but this shows what can be done. The dentists are not government employees. They get paid on a fee for service basis. |
Yep, same here.
The system also doesn´t prevent privately run clinics
(although they are mostly small and in most cases in specialisations where you can make a lot of money [like clinics for beauty modifications]) .
And normal Practices of course are always privately owned by the doctors themselves (and get the fees for the services they provide for their patients from the health insurance companies).
If you work you are always subject to a compulsory health insurance, which costs you a certain percentage of your wages (depending on the insurance company [which you are free to choose]) but you are always free to get a better police which gives you access to vcertain privilegues, such as having a room of your own in a clinic (without having to share it with other patients, which is standard), or being guaranteed to be treated by the head physician of the himself.
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shawnmmcc
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Ned - I am talking about the current state of mental health and it's lack of funding. One of our friends works in the county lockup (the one I quote in my sig, Mr. Dollinger) and we have discussed the problem law enforcement is having with the mentally ill. It's utterly macabre, they are considered competent enough to refuse to stay in a mental instution, but yet they are incompetent enough to end up in jail and resist in ways that forces the police to hurt them or even use deadly force (we had one case where the individual was hitting himself in the head with a tire iron, the police called on him to freeze and he charged them. Tragically, and by necessity, he was shot dead). We have had several shootings of obviously mentally ill people in my city over the last several years, sadly justified in almost every case.
If you look at my posts in other threads, I always apportion blame to the left and right. However, remember that the entire defunding of mental hospitals was done with the intent to transfer substantial amounts of the savings to support services. It has not happened, and much of that I can squarely put in the lap of anti-tax, free lunch types who refuse to properly fund that kind of program. When the programs aren't funded, you end up with mentally ill street people who are victimized, violent, and/or dead (they cannot take care of themselves) and who next to immigrants are the second largest source of deadly multi-antibiotic resistant TB in the US. Penny wise and pound foolish beyond a doubt.
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shawnmmcc
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AH - it's the tension between the true libetarian ideal, which it critics accuse of being chaos, and the fact that a government of the people, by the people for the people can become the tyranny of 50% plus 1, leading to some pretty terrible mistreatment of minorities. It happened in both our countries.
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21-06-2005 03:09
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