27-07-2005 01:18									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Havak *edit* There are a few common interpretations of the origin of 'Poms'. Two that were bandied about on the Lions tour: POHMIE - Prisoners of His/Her Majesty In England (the favoured version I encountered with Aussies). POHMIE - Prisoners of His/Her Majesty In Exile (the one that I think is far more likely to be true - and ironically originally applied to new arrivals in OZ rather than the entire British race).

They're commonly touted as explanations but there are plenty of experts who dismiss them for variuous reasons. The bottom line is that no one knows - with certainty - the source.

quote: Finbar is more Pom than we are if the latter holds any truth (and won't that please him!)

I'm comfortably ensconced in a republic, thanks.

	27-07-2005 01:20									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Havak That said Finbar I did smile at this quip from Mathew Hayden: "I love his aggression and the way he plays his cricket. He plays like a true South African."

A Queensland dry wit.

quote: I heard an awful rumour at the weekend that two of the Australian squad are qualified as Scottish? One apparently actually born there as his parents were visiting rellies? Didn't get any names though so perhaps I was being wound up?

You were.

	27-07-2005 01:22									#183
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Ah - yes sorry your an aussie then

Now you're really getting me angry!

	27-07-2005 01:24									#184
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Yes, France played 2 matches in SA, one draw and one SA victory. Mind you, in both games both coaches experimented quite a bit. I'd say France and SA are roughly the same strength but SA had home ground advantage, and they were fresh (whereas the French had their whole lengthy season in the legs and not physically as fit).

Nice to see you back and representing Les Bleu so grandly, LDiCesares. Pity the same can't be said of your compatriot, Mr , wherever he might be.

	27-07-2005 05:32									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Good response? Who to? They were not my words in the first place! Look towards some newly canonised Kiwi for the origin!

Eh?
Is that another attempt to wind me up or somesuch?
Now where exactly did I indicate that it was directed at you in any way? Other than the fact that you posted it to get a reaction in the first place of course.

Knowing the origin I retract my previous comments not one iota.
A rather well thought out statement all around.
Afterall if he went public with grandiose proclamations about the AB's being the best in the world it'd make him look like ... how can I put this nicely ... an Englishman currently in residence somewhere in the vicinity of Southhampton?

I suppose he could've partially justified that they really weren't the best in the world with a reference or two to that ultra-flat backline thingummy not so long ago but I rather doubt he'd be the one to bring that up?

	27-07-2005 12:05									#186
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Tie him up in flummery. Nice counter-tactic.

	27-07-2005 12:49									#187
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Going to need some time to decipher that before commenting.

*edit* Finbar can you give your take on the Cape Town incident? Looks like young Henjak has blown things with Eddie?

Last edited by Havak on 27-07-2005 at 12:59

	27-07-2005 15:36									#188
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Matt Henjak has a history of off-field and after-hours misbehaviour. More so with the Brumbies than the Wallabies. I think it was covered up by the Brumbies, something they have been prone to do. (He has now left the Brumbies for Perth. I doubt that John Mitchell will give his players the personal leeway the Brumbies have enjoyed over the years)

Whether he has sunk himself for all time with Eddie is entirely up to the young man. Eddie has told him to get counselling and to make some decisions about where he wants to go in life. If he decides he wants to be a Wallaby, and takes the appropriate steps in his life, Eddie will give him another chance because he's a talented young player. It boils down to whether the young man has the character to make and uphold the decisions. I think John Mitchell could be a good influence on him in that regard.

The reason he was sent home was mainly his response to Lote Tuquiri telling him to pull his head in. (None of them should have been in the bar at 4am anyway) There was some sort of skirmish nearby with drinks being thrown around. Henjak emptied his glass in the direction of the skirmish. Lote told him to behave himself. Henjak turned on Lote.

	27-07-2005 22:04									#189
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Boys will be boys.

	28-07-2005 12:59									#190
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I think what blind sides me most Finbar is what the hell were professional players doing in a club at that time so close to an important game? It was unprofessional of all of them to say the least. It sounds like Henjak has Healey/McCrae like anger management problems? I hope the counselling helps him.

quote: The bottom line is that no one knows - with certainty - the source.

But it is fair to say that Brits and Aussies are largely happy with their differing takes on the origins?

quote: I'm comfortably ensconced in a republic, thanks.

Give Tony time – he will be President yet.

I was being led up the garden path about the Scottish issue. None were born there. But some of the squad would qualify to play for them in Rugger through the ancestor rule (and the once had a drink of scotch rule).

quote: I suppose he could've partially justified that they really weren't the best in the world with a reference or two to that ultra-flat backline thingummy not so long ago but I rather doubt he'd be the one to bring that up?

No he couldn’t admit to an error – that’s would be most out of character for our Graham. Mind you he could have been humble and said “I haven’t even won a tri-nations yet”? He could even have said “Wales sacked me and I thoroughly deserved it”?

As for standing by your rebuttal of Graham’s assertion that “That’s not the case” I’m not totally convinced. The ABs are not World Champions or tri-nations champions after all (for at least another month!). They rely on home fixtures to hang onto the Bledisloe as well don’t they? If it were competed for on every game like the Cook cup it would change hands all the time. Having said that they are a team playing awesome, attractive and consummately Professional rugby right now. It's time they won big.

quote: Afterall who's spent the most time at the top of the world rankings over the past decade or so (I don't recall when rugby went pro exactly)?

Australia isn’t it?

I think we all have different views of the importance of world rankings. I used to rate them very highly whereas Finbar consistently pointed out they are a flawed system of comparison. I’m no where near so convinced of their veracity any longer. Once you tuck Bill in the cabinet topping a theoretical league stops meaning too much perhaps (particularly when you nosedive down it!?)

quote: Who almost always goes in as the bookies favourite (Bookies after all actually have an interest in getting it right as opposed to the armchair punter spouting off nationalistic jingoism seen through sheer n-coloured goggles.

ABs every time I’ll grant you that. Pretty unfairly so in 2003 I have to say as despite those thumping away wins against the Aussies and Boks in the tri-nations another side had a better record against the top teams over the preceding four years…and strangely that side won the cup.

quote: We mightn't give them the respect they probably feel they deserve but, well, that might come one day if they can actually beat us at home a few times and are able to make a bit of a habit of it ... talk being cheap and all ... ?

You are hard to beat at home that is for sure. Even if it sometimes annoys me how seldom you mount big challenging tours away from that safety zone (by challenging I mean playing at least two top sides or the same one twice on an end of season tour like UK teams do – Wales and France last year does not really count as the ABs didn’t know Wales were resurgent and were therefore caught quite off guard).

Am I correct that the last two losses at home for the ABs were to the soon to be retired Jonno led England (in 2003) and before that the soon to be retired Ealesy led Wallabies (in 2001)? It says a lot about what is needed to win in NZ given those guys are two of the best international skippers ever to play the game (IMHO of course) and that both games were remarkable performances by the visitors. That Wellington game in 2003 stands out as one of the most remarkable ones I have ever seen to be honest – and I would be very surprised if it didn’t partly prompt the new found focus on forward play in NZ.

It’s fair to say only the Lions (a long time ago) and the Aussies (more recently) have conquered the ‘house of pain’ isn’t it?

Mind you home records can be a little illusory you know – after all the ABs have not triumphed at Twickers this century (but then have only deigned to visit once so far). I am sure they plan to address that in November (and frankly we have no hope unless Robinson goes before then – the t*** will probably throw in the infant Tait against Tana).

In autumn I will watching Robbo carefully - it's time to blood the young guys from the Churchill squad and ditch the under performers. Sadly I think Robbo is incapable of such radical thought and will pick the same old faces.

Dean Richards is building a nice little power base across the road from HQ - I wonder if we will soon see a Richards-Wells reunion running England (add Jonno to the mix as motivational coach and I could certainly live with that).

	28-07-2005 14:06									#191
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Now you're really getting me angry!

I see i continue to blunder around like a blind fool in the rugby thread I meant no offence - just getting confused by some of the comments here.

I will avoid anymore unintended insult by asking you which team you support then? as peoples location info can be misleading.
For the record I support wales by birthright and Fiji for their style of play. And i find sheep strangley ugly - must be the english blood in me?

	28-07-2005 15:00									#192
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Yep thats the English blood all right.

Don't worry about Finbar - he was born an Australian but spiritually he has always been an Italian at heart.

He just generally loves the sport I think but you will often suspect his comments of showing a soft spot for Waratahs, Australia and the Azzuri (occasionally Ireland?). Oh and England of course - he is a big fan of England though he likes to deny it in public.

And now I've done you a favour as I will be the one needing a hard hat.

You would probably only genuinely offend Finbar if you called him a Queenslander or that quaint expression they use for Western Australians (mud grubbers is it?). Though you came close with 'Kiwi' as Aussies and kiwis do not like being confused!

	28-07-2005 15:07									#193
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Tigers players summer movements:

IN: Leo Cullen (lock - Leinster), Ian Humphreys (fly-half - Belfast Harlequins), Shane Jennings (flanker - Leinster), Alex Moreno (prop - Brive), Ian Nimmo (lock - Heriot's).

OUT: Neil Back (retired - now assistant coach), Martin Johnson (retired), John Wells (coach - RFU Academy).

Shane Jennings is apparently impressing in training - but then so is Will Skinner (Neil Back's apprentice who missed most of last season after shoulder surgery). Should be a tasty fight between them for the seven shirt.

And please god someone stop the cup burglars. Wasps winning the title three years in a row with a sum total of one week on top of the league in that time is giving the premiership a huge lack of credibility.

	28-07-2005 15:44									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think what blind sides me most Finbar is what the hell were professional players doing in a club at that time so close to an important game? It was unprofessional of all of them to say the least.

Indeed. That's why the others were fined $5000 and copped suspended suspensions. There's no suggestion that the others misbehaved, just that they were there. Lote Tuquiri is one of the quietest, mildest chaps around. No surprise he told Henjak to behave himself.

quote: It sounds like Henjak has Healey/McCrae like anger management problems? I hope the counselling helps him.

I think it's more that he's immature, earning a lot of money, dying his hair silly colours, all of that. And he was obviously p*ssed in the night club.

quote: But it is fair to say that Brits and Aussies are largely happy with their differing takes on the origins?

Those two interpretations actually go for detail that isn't usually part of the definition. The convict-based theory has it that Pom is derived simply from POHM - Prisoner of His/Her Majesty. Another theory has it that Pom was an abbreviation of Pomegranate - that the imported convicts' pale skin resembled the pale/light pink skin of a pomegranate. But that theory has fewer supporters than the POHM theory.

quote: I was being led up the garden path about the Scottish issue. None were born there. But some of the squad would qualify to play for them in Rugger through the ancestor rule (and the once had a drink of scotch rule).

Oh well, Michael Kasprowicsz represented Queensland at rugby at junior level. His brother had a couple of seasons with the Waratahs as a flanker. You might care to pass this on to Edinburgh.

quote: I think we all have different views of the importance of world rankings. I used to rate them very highly whereas Finbar consistently pointed out they are a flawed system of comparison. I’m no where near so convinced of their veracity any longer. Once you tuck Bill in the cabinet topping a theoretical league stops meaning too much perhaps (particularly when you nosedive down it!?)

Exactly. Rankings represent a situation at a very particular place in time. So particular as to render them potentially meaningless as soon as another match is played. Cricket tried to give its rankings some sort of credibility by factoring in relative strengths and weaknesses of opponents, but, ultimately, who cares? Rankings are just another list in a world already chockers with them.

England are the current world champions courtesy of having beaten Australia in a particular match. It's a title and a trophy of historical interest, just as when Australia were world champions. In fact, to be strictly accurate, the title is meaningless because, under the World Cup format, not every teams plays each other. But the title sounds good.

	28-07-2005 15:57									#195
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I see i continue to blunder around like a blind fool in the rugby thread I meant no offence - just getting confused by some of the comments here. I will avoid anymore unintended insult by asking you which team you support then? as peoples location info can be misleading.

Ah. Now you're looking for logic. You might have noticed by now that most of us in the thread must have been out in the bar when God was distributing the quality of logic. In fact, I think we once devised a system of yellow and red card penalties for sins committed in our threads. From memory, anyone who displayed the slightest hint of logic was condemned to watch a videotape called "Creative English Back Play" for all of eternity. Imagine watching a millisecond videotape loop for all of eternity.

quote: For the record I support wales by birthright and Fiji for their style of play. And i find sheep strangley ugly - must be the english blood in me?

For the record, Havak sort of explained my situation. Apart from the bit about England. England's only saving grace is that it's a damn sight closer to the real world - which is to say, Europe - than Australia (aka TAEOTW - The A*se End Of The World) is. And, frankly, what they're all doing in England when they could be in Europe (and I don't mean politically) is beyond me.

Oh, and regardless of sheep, New Zealand is an admirable country, particularly politically.

	28-07-2005 17:00									#196
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quote: Originally posted by finbar edit...... From memory, anyone who displayed the slightest hint of logic was condemned to watch a videotape called "Creative English Back Play" for all of eternity. Imagine watching a millisecond videotape loop for all of eternity.

please stop - thats not a thought i'd ever spent much time on before, and i can see why. The horror

In rugby(and most sport) i find it hard to get polarised by nation. If i see a good game/match then i'm happy to give credit where its due(in recent cases NZ for rugby+ AUS for cricket). Still the banter i used to have with the Aussies out in png was fun

They had an interesting programe on tv last night.
Its nice to see the downunders claiming their inheritance, apparently there is a growing trend to discover their criminal past, and a project to make a brick for each re-discovered criminal family member, with a record of their crime and sentance on it

	28-07-2005 17:10									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Havak edit..... And now I've done you a favour as I will be the one needing a hard hat.

and to repay that noble deed i should in true welsh fashion try to steal your cattle(or beef to be more specific to the saying)

Robinson was(is) the coach of Bath isn't he? And i gather not the most deserving of coaches for the england involvement?
Now that Jonno has retired - do you see him heading in a coach direction, i dont know if he's ever talked about it, but i could see him doing well in that role. He certainly would gather the respect of all the team.

	28-07-2005 17:50									#198
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Andy Robinson was the coach of Bath in the late nineties – immediately before Callard IIRC and certainly he wasn’t a very successful coach at that level. He did record the 98 European cup win but that was an awful game against Brive (only Saints-Munster and this years diabolical kicking game have been worse).

He was a conservative choice for the RFU and has already proved not to be a good one IMO.

Jonno has shown no real interest in coaching as yet - and to borrow a thought (already expressed by Finbar a while ago I think) one would have to ask where is the upside for him in moving that way? He has little to gain and a lot to lose by becoming a coach as right now his reputation in the sport is fully intact. It depends if he see it as a personal challenge I suppose? The man I mentioned earlier, Dean Richards, is far more likely to make a play in the medium term I think.

quote: And he was obviously p*ssed in the night club.

It also rather sounds like the ARU does not consider the matter concluded.

quote: Those two interpretations actually go for detail that isn't usually part of the definition

I suspect that is mainly because they are frequently used in verbal sparring between rugger fans rather than out of true academic interest.

quote: You might care to pass this on to Edinburgh.

You think they won’t know? The big (and apparently spiritually Scottish) Fijian currently playing for the ABs was on Matt Williams list before he himself got the boot for not liking Scotch enough.

quote: But the title sounds good.

Beautiful finish. Right up to that point the whole paragraph must have been making Ravagon and Andydog feel really great about supporting what is the best team in the world at all times other than the brief period of World cups.

quote: Imagine watching a millisecond videotape loop for all of eternity.

Only the case if you made it “Great Wallaby scrummaging”.

quote: And, frankly, what they're all doing in England when they could be in Europe (and I don't mean politically) is beyond me.

If you like beer you avoid the continent like the plague. Some good premium lagers (but that is not really beer) but other than that you have to drink wine. And why drink wine when beer exists?

quote: If i see a good game/match then i'm happy to give credit where its due

Yeah me too.

(is there a whistles innocently smilie? Oh well this one will have to do instead)

I think you meant discover their ancestors criminal past surely? I found that they got a bit touchy down there if you suggested all of them were Criminals.

	28-07-2005 19:11									#199
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor They had an interesting programe on tv last night. Its nice to see the downunders claiming their inheritance, apparently there is a growing trend to discover their criminal past, and a project to make a brick for each re-discovered criminal family member, with a record of their crime and sentance on it

It became trendy about 20 years ago to have transportees in your family tree. The only reason I ended up in the godforsaken sh*thole of a backwater of a naive and inward-looking and self-important and self-absorbed and conservative place was that my great grandfather, a Dutch ship's engineer, jumped ship in Adelaide in the 1860s. Stupid b*astard. If he hadn't, I wouldn't have had to go through all the rigmarole - special visas, etc - it took to move to and live here.

	28-07-2005 19:13									#200
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor and to repay that noble deed i should in true welsh fashion try to steal your cattle(or beef to be more specific to the saying)

Anything except singing will do, thanks, although a brass brand wouldn't go astray.

	28-07-2005 19:16									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Havak If you like beer you avoid the continent like the plague. Some good premium lagers (but that is not really beer) but other than that you have to drink wine. And why drink wine when beer exists?

Priorities ...

quote: I think you meant discover their ancestors criminal past surely? I found that they got a bit touchy down there if you suggested all of them were Criminals.

The dills would love it. The higher in society, the more amusing they would find it. Part of the infamous egalitarianism, which only truly exists in theory.

	28-07-2005 19:51									#202
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Quite happy with my imbibing priorities as it happens.

Pseudo egalitarianism is perhaps one step better than the awfully overt class obsession in the UK though?

I've never understood the term 'upper class' to be honest - unless it is a quite deliberate and sarcastic use of the antonym to the class such people truly possess as human beings?

	28-07-2005 19:57									#203
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I find it all really interesting, the movements of peoples. The english for example are mostly german+french as a culture, with the obvious intermarriage with the native Celts(but they were only native from around 6000BCE, as it was all under ice for a while), and overtones from the Romans.

But the banter and friction between Aussies(a collective term i use)+Kiwis is as good as the English/Scots/Welsh/Irish thing.
And what has this got to do with rugby? well it all comes to the fore in sport and thats cool, and why i love playing+watching sport as much as i did(playing) and do(watching). Its great we all 'hate' each other

	28-07-2005 20:43									#204
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Its great we all 'hate' each other

Some more than others. Speaking of whom, where is our AWOL grenouille?

	28-07-2005 21:29									#205
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Oh, and regardless of sheep, New Zealand is an admirable country, particularly politically.

Do you have any opinion on the upcoming elections? Personally, I'd like to see a National/NZ First coalition come to power and get rid of the ethnic grievance industry known as the Waitangi Tribunal. NZ's treaty of Waitangi has been twisted in favor of Maori for too long...it's high time we all became equal under the law again - as stated in the original treaty:

http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/...oodTreaty1.html

	28-07-2005 21:56									#206
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Havak, go to Belgium and tell them they don't have good biers/bières. Charles Quint is very good for instance (though I do prefer Guinness). And if you don't like wine, you always have pastis.

	29-07-2005 12:42									#207
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*Havak packs his bags for Belgium*

	29-07-2005 12:49									#208
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But I do like wine LDiCesare - I simply prefer Real Ale.

Pastis is the licorice flavoured drink isn't it? I have to confess I am not a big fan. Give me 1664 any day.

I've been to Belgium several times - and on one notorious tour rolled out of the bar at 6am when the bus was due to leave for the ferry at 7am (we had slowly drunk our way through the speciality beer menu).

Some of it was most drinkable - Duivels and Chimay Bleue were the pick for me IIRC. It is good stuff is Belgian beer, and the belgians are perhaps the spiritually closest to brits in the beer stakes as every is at the brewing game - but it still doesn't compare to British Real Ale.

I recommend seeking out a few brands if you ever visit - Everards Old Original and Tiger and damn fine beers (but hard to find outside the East Midlands). Morlands Old Speckled hen, Marstons Pedigree, Greene King Abbot, Adnams Broadside, Taylors landlord and Fullers London Pride are all worth a sup. And with a nod to CoT Brains SA (stands for 'Skull Attack', and boy does it!) is perhaps the finest thing ever to leave Wales.

And they are all fairly mass market beers before we even get into the smaller breweries...

	29-07-2005 13:52									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Havak edit........ And with a nod to CoT Brains SA (stands for 'Skull Attack', and boy does it!) is perhaps the finest thing ever to leave Wales. And they are all fairly mass market beers before we even get into the smaller breweries...

I've always wondered why that brand of welsh beer didnt adopt the Slogan from the other brand they market heavily at rugby matches in wales? The slogan is 'Never forget your Welsh' - welsh being the brand of ale.
I think Brains would be very appropriate, especially for the forwards

And i like your list of Beers/Ales Havak - i tried Speckled Hen in the lake district, i think its an aquired taste but one worth getting used to. Mead is my favourite tipple but its hard to find decent ones(or any at all).

	29-07-2005 14:12									#210
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Pastis is actually anise based (kinf od absinthe without wormwood). I don't like it much either, but it's very popular in southern France.
Chimay bleue is quite good. I don't know the beers in your list . That may have to do with my strong preference for stout, but mostly I doubt many of these can be found in France.