06-07-2005 21:19									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX There's something wrong with that start... there doesn't seem to be enough jungle...

Heh, I was thinking the same thing.

I of course agree with the rest. Check out the cow with the worker and then settle if nothing better presents itself.

	06-07-2005 21:24									#32
	Suffering from ads?

4-turn Settler-pump right there, so no need to move the Settler, no matter what we find with the Worker. If there are more bonus tiles or any luxuries around, the second city will get them. There is no Sea visible, so we are not looking for a coastal start, right?

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX There's something wrong with that start... there doesn't seem to be enough jungle...

	07-07-2005 00:08									#33
	Re: First cut from spreadsheets Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by E_T It looks like we grow too fast, but I'll look at options later. I've created a sim bic file that is attached to this post. I'm off to work now.... MoI E_T

With only 1 city, the lux slider is 100% efficient. It's hard to grow too fast. Though we might even consider building a second settler instead of an immediate granary. We'll have to sim that out...

	07-07-2005 00:39									#34
	Support Apolyton

We could even pop rush an item or two!

	07-07-2005 01:01									#35
	Re: Re: First cut from spreadsheets Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Though we might even consider building a second settler instead of an immediate granary. We'll have to sim that out...

Might be worth it if there is more bonus food around.

	07-07-2005 01:03									#36
	Got spare money?

Damn.

Wheres the Jungle? I demand more Jungle!

	07-07-2005 01:08									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yep, I agree pretty much with moving the worker 2, but after that...

I do have one thing to ask though. Why is it that for naming tiles in the WF, everthing starts from the tile 8 of the city? Why not just name the tiles as they are on the num pad.

ie, if we settled where we started, the cow would be 2, to hill 7, and 77, instead of the completely arbitrary cirlcle thingy?

	07-07-2005 01:20									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, there are 20 tiles, not including the city tile, in all. The numpad isn't that big. WF is designated as per the numbering system 1-20 while direction for moving workers is either denoted as to moving to a designated tile or moved using the numpad/keypad direction.

	07-07-2005 01:22									#39
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Here's a pic of the way they are numbered:

Attachment: wf allocation.jpg
This has been downloaded 76 time(s).

	07-07-2005 01:29									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

But what I think he's saying that it would be easier to remember 6-9 than it is to remember where the number 11 is.

	07-07-2005 01:36									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

On the other hand, two-tile moves are annoying to deal with when you have lots of big WFs, and you have to use two different punctuation marks since some tiles are two numbers with a dash.

	07-07-2005 01:41									#42
	Remove this text

why would you have to use two different punctuation marks?

1,2,2,1-1,7-7,8-9

-> 1,2,3,11,77,89

I find that using only one set of punctuation marks works better than using two...although adding spaces may help readability:

WF 1, 2, 3, 11, 77, 89 etc...

Last edited by Krill on 07-07-2005 at 01:48

	07-07-2005 02:07									#43
	Support Apolyton

The system we use now is not hard for me to use. I guess it takes some getting used to. Plus, it's the system that the MoI prefers and that's the biggest reason to use it.

	07-07-2005 02:08									#44
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Something else we might want to consider: building a worker first.

Don't forget that from turn 5 onwards the capital will be growing every 4th turn, and it takes 6 turns to mine. We need an extra worker just to keep up with the tile improvements...

	07-07-2005 02:10									#45
	Got spare money?

No, what matters the most is whatever the turnplayers find easist to use as the turnplayer has to read the WF numbers, and the MOI is not a turnplayer.

The Consuls are. So I suggest that we go an elect some consuls, and they can chose.

	07-07-2005 04:15									#46
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Nice start.

"Beef, it's what's for dinner."

	07-07-2005 07:12									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Krill No, what matters the most is whatever the turnplayers find easist to use as the turnplayer has to read the WF numbers, and the MOI is not a turnplayer. The Consuls are. So I suggest that we go an elect some consuls, and they can chose.

Well, I know that the 3 Consuls that are up for election now are familiar with the system as it is, so I would say the system is working fine since it is a system we have been using for 3 years now. Maybe you could take an informal poll and see if anyone wants to implement any changes.

Also, and trust me, the Consuls want to make the job on the MoI as easy as possible. The MoI's job is by far the hardest most time consuming job there is. The 3 Consul positions pale in comparison. I was a Consul in the first ISDG for about 6 months and I used the current system without a problem for the most part.

	07-07-2005 07:23									#48
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Krill Damn. Wheres the Jungle? I demand more Jungle!

It's just beyond the FOW...


E_T

	07-07-2005 07:34									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by BigFree The system we use now is not hard for me to use. I guess it takes some getting used to. Plus, it's the system that the MoI prefers and that's the biggest reason to use it.

and it's they system that I use in my spreadsheets. It does allow for quick coping ad pasting from that to orders, so it can be a great time saver (and we want to keep from having the MoI run out of time for things, like RL, etc...).

It's a simple system, as long as you denote WF in front of it ("like change WF to 1-2-11" or "Worker somebody - Mining Apolyton WF #11"). Whereas, movement is basic number pad and is normally worded as "move settler 2".

So, there is no real way to get confused. Also, all of the charachters that are used in the number system (1 to 20 and -) are all on the number pad, so it's also a time saver when dealing with Multiple cities with multiple WF changes on any given turn.

Again, saving time.

* E_T has taken an Engineering Management course and one of the first things learned was "economy of motion in relationship to productivity"

MoI E_T

	07-07-2005 07:48									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The nice thing about E_T's system compared to straight directions is a WF can be completely redeployed much more easily. If it's simply "move this one citizen from X tile to Y tile" I think either system works well. But when you want to give entire WF layouts for the purpose of making big changes and/or making sure things are set right, E_T's ring around the city is much easier to go and lay all the citizens down with.

	07-07-2005 07:51									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Krill No, what matters the most is whatever the turnplayers find easist to use as the turnplayer has to read the WF numbers, and the MOI is not a turnplayer. The Consuls are. So I suggest that we go an elect some consuls, and they can chose.

Well, I HAVE been a turn player, just not in this particular Demogame. NYE is very familiar with this system (as for anyone who has been in the SPDG 1 and the PTWISDG).

Give it a try, just don't put it down because you don't think that it's as efficient or could cause confusion. It DOES work and it works well.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about, from the old PTWISDG game

quote: Lakeview - starting WF 1. NC. Mingapulco - starting WF 2-3-6-7-8-9-10-15. NC. Chiquita - starting WF 1-2-4-5-6-8-13. Change WF to 1-2-4-5-6-13-14. Bananatopia - starting WF 1-2-3-4-8-9-14-16-19 (working Game). Change WF to 1-2-3-4-8-12-14-16-19 (working Game). Incensity - starting WF 5-6-7-14-16-17. NC. Dominus - starting WF 1-4-6-7-8-19 & 1 Scientist. Change WF to 1-2-4-6-7-8 & 1 Taxman. Tripoli - starting WF 1-2-4-17-18-19. Change WF to 2-4-6-17-18-19. Mu - starting WF 7-15. Change WF to 15-17. Hispanica - starting WF 1-2-3-4-12-20. NC. Power of Victory - starting WF 2-3-4-5-13-14. NC. Eisten Boulen - (grows this turn) starting WF 4-5-??6??. Change WF to 4-5-6. Karina - starting WF 3-4-11-13-15-16-18. NC. LuxInvicta - starting WF 1-2-11. NC. Big Bend - starting WF 1-3-4-6-8-10-13. NC. BigFurryCity - starting WF 5-6-7-8-18-19-20. NC. Apolyton Prime - starting WF 1-2-4-6-9-15-16-17-20 & 1 Entertainer. Del Monte - starting WF 1-3-5-6-10-11. NC. Heart of Darkness - starting WF 3-4-10-13-17-18. NC. Elucidium Novem - (grows this turn, Worker built) starting WF ??2-3-6-8-12??. Change WF to 2-3-4-6-8. Silk Road - starting WF 1-2-5-8-19. NC. Arcadia - starting WF 1-2-6-8-19-20. Change WF to 1-2-6-7-8-19. Zenophobia - (Worker built) starting WF ??2-3-4-9-10??. Change WF to 2-3-4-10-13. Solace - starting WF 1-2-7-8-16. NC. Down Under - (grows this turn) starting WF 2-??3??-4-10-12. Change WF to 2-3-4-10-12. Lumentis Bananis - starting WF 3-6-7-13. NC. Antlergrad - starting WF 2-3-4-10-11. NC. Area X - starting WF 3-5-6-17. Change WF to 3-5-16-17. Hero's Summit - starting WF 5-6-15. NC. Mongoose Abyss - starting WF 3-5. NC. Lumen Musae - starting WF 1-6-8. NC. Protuberance - Starting WF 1-20. NC. Kanaola - starting WF 7-8. NC. Cyrene - starting WF 6. NC. Eye - starting WF 1-2-4. NC. Vox Publica - starting WF 19-20. Freedom City - starting WF 6-7. NC. Mauretania - starting WF 6. NC. Thunder Bay - starting WF 1-20. NC. Memoria Fraxia - starting WF 6-8. Change WF to 6-15.

As you can see, a lot of typing, but that is reduced somewhat with copy and paste, esp from the spreadsheets (and yes, I had sheets for every one of those cities).

E_T

	07-07-2005 07:56									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What about :

.......1....2
....3....4....5
.6....7....8....9
...10...C...11
12..13..14..15
...16..17..18
......19..20


[edit:]

This way you don't have to revert to drawings to remember what is tile number one...

	07-07-2005 07:59									#53
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Krill Something else we might want to consider: building a worker first. Don't forget that from turn 5 onwards the capital will be growing every 4th turn, and it takes 6 turns to mine. We need an extra worker just to keep up with the tile improvements...

While I was at work, today, I was thinking that it might be good to build 1 worker just before we start the Granary, I'll take a look at that shortly.

Currently, my working queue is Enk War; Enk War; Enk War; Granary; Settler.

I'm looking at the worker between the 3rd Eck Warrior and the Granary.

MoI E_T

	07-07-2005 12:12									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I wish I could say we had news of getting the game going, but, I cannot tell a lie.

We do not know what the turn order is nor do we know if the first save has already been sent out by the admins.

I'll keep you all posted.

	07-07-2005 12:57									#55
	Suffering from ads?

Thankyou, BigFree. You are doing yeoman's service.

	07-07-2005 17:13									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

nice start

as BF said we might grow too fast. but he calculated with the fastest growth possible (5 turns for size 2 as the cow is not yet irrigated and then 4 turns for the next sizes)
but we are not yet sure wether we have more bonusgraslands, so it might be reasonable to work on a forrest or even cut a forrest down to help the production of the granary.
i think this depends on how the other 12 tiles we do not yet see will look like...
(once we have the granary it does not make any sense to use the forest as we can not grow within 2 turns)

i also agree with leif to found the city first and then move the worker...

	07-07-2005 19:17									#57
	Requirements for 4 turn settler pump - and other considerations Put an end to popups!

There are 2 requirements for a 4-turn Settler pump.

They are:
Food Surplus Balance - You need your city to grow in Population every 2 turns. A Granary with 5 Food per turn surplus. Relatively easy with what we see in our screenshot. This requirement is 'relatively' easy.

and

Shield Production - over the 4 turn Build of the Settler, you need to produce 30 shields or 7.5 shields per turn (on average). Now, with a 4-turn pump, you're Pop is going to Grow twice over the build time. So, with Governer Set to Emphasize Production Only, the new Pop will show up on the Forest tiles and that will give us 2 extra shields ever pop increase or 4 extra shields over the time frame.

So, that's 30 - 4 = 26 or 6.5 SPT average or 2 turns at 6 SPT and 2 turns at 7 SPT. City Center is 1, Irrigated Cows is 1, Mined Bonus Grassland is 2. So, at pop 2 AND constantly working those tiles gives 4 SPT. So, we need to have a starting OR Base Settler pump pop of greater than 2.

So, for if we want our Base Settler Pump Pop at 3, we need to have one more Mined Bonus Grassland, that is constantly worked. But, we CURRENTLY CANNOT see any more Bonus grassland tiles, We WILL be able to know if and where there is another Bonus when we DO settle.

Assuming that we do have another Bonus Grass AND we get it mined, that gives us our Base 6 SPT for the start of our Pump. Then, we will need just 1 more Sheild when we get to pop 4, which could come from either a Mined Grassland or Irrigated Plains (Irrigation takes 2 turns less worker turns, so that is more favorable). This tile will have to be used by Apolyton with a 2 turn on and 2 turn off cycle, so another city that is close can use it ONLY on the turns the Pump dosen't need them.

So, for a 3 to 5 pop Settler Pump (grows to 5, settler built on same turn), we will need excluseive use of a Bonus grassland tile that we don't even know about. I'm sure that we likey will have one, but then we might also want it to use for our second city or some other city for Mil Unit builds. But we will need it for the Pump.

We will also need a Minimum of 1 Lux (either through Lux slider or a regular Lux being connected) and 2 Garrison, for the size 4 part of the build. The size 3 part can be just the 2 garrison with no slider/Lux or 1 garrison with slider/Lux.

Also of consideration, while we are pumping our Settlers every 4 turns, we aren't producing anything else. No Mil Units to escort those Settlers to their city sites. No Mil Units to scout terrain, No Mil Units to go Barb Hunting. No Mil Units to Watch for any possible attacks. These will have to come from our other cities, which will take time to get setup.

Also of consideration is the time it will take to set up the pump. Move/Irrigate/Road a tile takes 8 turns and Move/Mine/Road a tile takes 10 turn. So, with 1 worker at the start, we need to irrigate/road 2 tiles and mine/road 2 tiles, which will take 36 turns, assuming that the tiles are all next to each other. Another Worker, will help speed this part of it up.

E_T

	07-07-2005 19:30									#58
	Remove this text

We have a cow. We're talking about cheeseburgers!
And all that manure will boost our agriculture.

Nice start!

Edited:
Btw, E_T and BigFree... Amazing job!

	07-07-2005 19:41									#59
	Possible Ivory at one of the Plains tiles in screenshot Support Apolyton

As this is a Balanced map, there is a distinct possibility that one of the plains tiles that we can see on the edge of the FOW could very possibly contain an Ivory.

E_T

	07-07-2005 20:46									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Posted by emperor:

***IMPORTANT***

Elucidus has once again been delayed from starting the game, and Micaelis Rex is completely unavailable to do so. Both admins have previously given me permission to, if absolutely necessary, start the game myself, if an exceptional circumstance (such as we are in now) arises. Therefore, I have made the decision to make this post informing of my starting of the ISDG, in the interests of getting this game started NOW and not another week down the track.

The only problem is that I do not yet have passwords from all the teams; only some. (PAL and BAT, to be clear and precise. ) If all remaining teams can send their passwords to me ASAP, I can start the game AS SOON AS I have recieved them all. No delays; I guarantee that this game will begin in under 24 hours as long as I have recieved all the team passwords.

It is still possible, though highly unlikely, that Elucidus will be able to start the game himself. If that happens, please disregard this post. But otherwise, please take note of (and take action on too, if necessary) this important announcement.

Sincerely,
emperor

[P.S. @Luc if you are reading this - please check your PM. ]

He also posted the turn order (finally!):

CDZ
BAT
CGN
CBR
ACS
PAL

If I see that smilie with the parted hair and goatee one more time...