08-07-2005 17:18									#91
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Exhibit a.

	08-07-2005 17:21									#92
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Incidentally, I've read an excellent speech by Ken Livingston (Mayor of London):

quote: I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful. It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever. That isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is. They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I'm proud to be the mayor of that city. Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life. I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous. But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail. In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential. They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don't want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayo...ment_070705.jsp

	08-07-2005 17:24									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse This is pure gold for the coalition. The extremists have a fundamentally flawed view of Western democracies like Britain. Their actions only give people reasons to support things like the war in Iraq.

What makes you think that is a failure of their attack? I seriously doubt they where expecting to cause a change in policiy through a terrorist attack like this, their motive is to cause conflict, war, and strife. They want to escalate fighting, not stop it. But unfortunetly so do alot of leaders within our own governments, and so they end up playing into one another's hands and everyone caught inbetween gets the bombs (wether they're droped from a plain or hidden on a bus).


Bombs go off in London, and in every country there are leaders and political figures banging drums, rattling sabers, and conscripting people to whatever cause they want.

	08-07-2005 17:30									#94
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I wonder if this wasn't really about the trial of the muslim cleric.

	08-07-2005 17:36									#95
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It probably has something to do with Masri. He's from the same organization as Zahwahri.

	08-07-2005 19:40									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Sounds like he's a moderator here.

Naaah. The mods here are for the most part upstanding blokes. Its the fraud ones you need watch out for.

	08-07-2005 19:53									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Incidentally, I've read an excellent speech by Ken Livingston (Mayor of London):

Let's have a look at his earlier views on the subject:

quote: Yusuf al-Qaradawi: “This is not suicide, it is martyrdom in the name of God. ... acts of martyrdom are allowed.” Ken Livingston (defending these comments): “Very often those who raise uncomfortable truths are denounced.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1171673,00.html

	08-07-2005 19:57									#98
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i doubt this will change British foreign policy one way or the other. Im not sure it will change domestic counter terror policies all that much. This is not quite the shock 9/11, or even 3/11 were. People have been expecting an attack on the UK since 9/11, and this one, even if casualties go up, does not look that severe compared to past AQ attacks elsewhere.

The real question, as Davout mentions, is the future of the UK policy of reluctance to extradite persons of interest wanted elsewhere - not only by France, but by Russia, mideastern states, etc. IIUC the UK is much less likely to extradite than other EU states. Some have claimed that there were no terror acts in UK up to this point due to this policy - the terrorists did not want to lose their quasi-sanctuary (of course it wasnt a sanctuary for proven terrorists, more for people on the fringes of terrorism, inciters, etc) Perhaps it is in this context that the trial of Abu Hamza was important - if "sanctuary" was being denied anyway, why not strike?

But all this is rank speculation till we have a better idea of who actually did this. What if any, were there connections to "londonistan" that is the complex of radical Islamist imams in London? what was there connection to the residual AQ leadership in South Asia? To al Tawhid?

	08-07-2005 20:00									#99
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re Ken Livingstone

while I have trouble with his earlier statements, I would give credit where credit is due. the statement he issued yesterday was right on, and stands in contrast to that of the MP for Bethnal and Bow Green. I would watch Red Ken's actions going forward, and judge him on those.

	08-07-2005 20:14									#100
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as for the political motives, I think its impossible to say what those are, and probably will be for decades. Are they trying to get UK OUT of Iraq and Afghanistan, as their statement says, or trying to draw UK further into armed conflict in the Islamic world (as Stratfor said the 9/11 attack was designed to do - which was why they combined 9/11 with the assasination of Massoud of the Northern Alliance). Or is it designed to stir up anti-muslim vigilantism? Or is it simply to show the muslim world that AQ is still functioning, and is strong? AQ doesnt recruit only the basis of victimization and western wrongs, but by showing that it (unlike, say, secular nationalists) is strong and can inflict pain on the West, and thus restore pride. Its a stretch, but perhaps they really did want to undermine the G8 conference.

And we should recall that for religious fanatics, a political strategy may incorporate considerations that are irrational to the rest of us. From what I have read there is tiny strain of orthodox jewish fanatics who want to blow up the mosques on the temple mount in jerusalem. Now from any "rational" perspective this is loony, as it can only lead to a war of the entire islamic world against Israel, one where israel might have little western support. To the fanatics, thats the feature, not the bug. By starting a war that would lead towards the extermination of Israel, they would FORCE G-d to intervene and save Israel with a miracle. But in Jewish theology G-d doesnt perform miracles in modern times, and wont until the Messiah comes. Thus this would force G-d to send the Messiah and end History. This is called "forcing the End". IF you share the assumptions of the fanatics, its a RATIONAL strategy (whether to call it a POLITICAL strategy im not sure) IT CANNOT be ruled out that the leaders of AQ have some analogous motivations in mind - there has been conflicting analysis on this.

	08-07-2005 20:30									#101
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quote: Let's have a look at his earlier views on the subject:

I don't recall endorsing his earlier views.

	08-07-2005 20:40									#102
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I don't see any changes in public opinion. Most will compare it to the IRA attacks and chalk it up to further experience at dealing with and preventing acts of terrorism. Government policy may change but where political malleability of the public is concerned (e.g increasing willingness for ID cards or favour in the Iraqi war opinion) - I don't see it happening.

	08-07-2005 20:46									#103
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What stupid and pointless attack, resulting in stupid and pointless deaths.

This changes nothing except ruining people's lives.

errr.....I am still waiting to find out how this will affect Mornington Crescent....

	08-07-2005 20:48									#104
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark re Ken Livingstone while I have trouble with his earlier statements, I would give credit where credit is due. the statement he issued yesterday was right on, and stands in contrast to that of the MP for Bethnal and Bow Green. I would watch Red Ken's actions going forward, and judge him on those.

ken livingstone has always been cosy with terrorists, from the IRA in 80s, to the guy who endorsed suicide bombings in israel last year. yeah he made a good speech, but as they say, actions speak louder than words.

and yeah galloway is a worthless shitbag, but then we've known that for years. no doubt though his remarks will go down a storm with his constituants, cos lets face it that's how he got elected there in the first place. :/

	08-07-2005 20:50									#105
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quote: errr.....I am still waiting to find out how this will affect Mornington Crescent....

Well I don't think the IMCA is going to endorse or accept the new variant that replaces nesbits with bombs.

	08-07-2005 20:56									#106
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quote: I doubt these attacks have changed a single mind here in poly about the Iraq war. I doubt they will change minds anywhere else.

Yeah, because that is such a common event here at Apolyton....

	08-07-2005 21:37									#107
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Like many others here I don't think the political fall-out from this is going have much effect. UK political will behind the war on terror will be unaffected, and I doubt the methodology of our counter-terrorist organisations will be radicalised in the same way as that of the Americans after 9/11, e.g. indefinate "detainment" without trial, extradiction to countries who practise torture. The UK went down that path from 1969 and got severely burned.

The more interesting quesiton is will it galvanise our European allies to work together? The European arrest warrant should go through on the nod if other EU countries are targeted.

	08-07-2005 22:07									#108
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It will make it easier for Blair to remove people's civil rights.

But it's just the usual hypocrisy again. The terrorists are "evil" and "barbaric" from a man who is conducting an illegal war and supported appalling sanctions against Iraq. As usual, ordinary people get caught in the middle and have their deaths used to further a cause which exposes their fellows to further risk.

At least the IRA were more decent, they actually tried to off the woman responsible.

Britain's actions speak for themselves. As a country it can have no complaint when others retaliate.

	08-07-2005 22:12									#109
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And the whole reaction is so irrational

quote: In 2002 3,431 people were killed on Britain's roads, and 35,976 were seriously injured.

You are at least 100 times more likely to die in a car crash than a terrorist attack. Even if there were ten of these attacks a year, it would still pale in comparison to auto deaths.

People need to grow up and get real.

	08-07-2005 22:13									#110
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see this is why it's a good thing people like aggie don't matter.

	08-07-2005 23:03									#111
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney ken livingstone has always been cosy with terrorists, from the IRA in 80s, to the guy who endorsed suicide bombings in israel last year. yeah he made a good speech, but as they say, actions speak louder than words.

And Margaret Thatcher endorsed mujahedin terrorists who indiscriminately killed Afghani civilians.

They're politicians, not moralists.


That said, I could think of areas of London to bomb that might have far fewer Muslims living or working nearby- Edgware Road is very popular with people from North Africa and the Middle East, and Aldgate Station is a short walk from the East End's Bangla Town community.

	08-07-2005 23:07									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And the whole reaction is so irrational

What reaction is that? From what I've seen the majority reaction seems to be "It's not that big a deal, we'll get on with life as normal and not let this change how we live".

Doesn't exactly sound like people are freaking out to me.

	08-07-2005 23:09									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And the whole reaction is so irrational quote: In 2002 3,431 people were killed on Britain's roads, and 35,976 were seriously injured. You are at least 100 times more likely to die in a car crash than a terrorist attack. Even if there were ten of these attacks a year, it would still pale in comparison to auto deaths. People need to grow up and get real.

Unfortunately people tend not to act on logic- which is why lotteries and casinos make so much money.

However I can assure you there weren't any headless chickens in the crowds of London commuters today- and don't judge the British public by what media outlets say or do.

	08-07-2005 23:14									#114
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The media said that many people had shattered confidence in using the tube and transport in general today, which is why it was so empty.

I surmise that it is in fact largely due to the opportunity to take a day off work without claiming a sickie or holiday.

Last edited by Dauphin on 08-07-2005 at 23:20

	08-07-2005 23:14									#115
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom And Margaret Thatcher endorsed mujahedin terrorists who indiscriminately killed Afghani civilians.

evidence on deliberate killing of Afghani civilians by people that Thatcher explicityly endorsed? Something comparable to the bus bombings, pizza parlor bombings that Hamas has engaged in?

	08-07-2005 23:16									#116
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quote: Norway shocked by 'al-Qaeda' threat

so the answer is still zero right?

	08-07-2005 23:16									#117
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark evidence on deliberate killing of Afghani civilians by people that Thatcher explicityly endorsed? Something comparable to the bus bombings, pizza parlor bombings that Hamas has engaged in?

I'll find it for you for tomorrow. Have to go and cook now.

	08-07-2005 23:20									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I summise that it is in fact largely due to the opportunity to take a day off work without claiming a sickie or holiday.

"The only thing to fear is losing a day's leave"

	08-07-2005 23:35									#119
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I'm a bit pissed so I haven't readthis whole thread, but I'd say that it is time for all countries to hunt down Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. The Yanks are bogged down in IRaq and seem to have forgotten that enemy #1 is bin Laden. We, and I mean all countries that can, need to capture this bastard.

What this means is not invading some country, but instead old fashion police work. Hunt him down and get him. IF the US helps, great, if not we need to do it ourselves. For too long, too many people have been sayting why doesn't the US go after him. It's time for everypone to take responsibility to capture him.

	08-07-2005 23:40									#120
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark evidence on deliberate killing of Afghani civilians by people that Thatcher explicityly endorsed? Something comparable to the bus bombings, pizza parlor bombings that Hamas has engaged in?

Well, the people of Kabul might have thought the destruction of their city in '92 was actually a very bad event.... Probably extremely comparable.

But hey, those guys were freedom fighters.