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Ninot
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Centre Bell
Nov 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
I'm a bit pissed so I haven't readthis whole thread, but I'd say that it is time for all countries to hunt down Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. The Yanks are bogged down in IRaq and seem to have forgotten that enemy #1 is bin Laden. We, and I mean all countries that can, need to capture this bastard.
What this means is not invading some country, but instead old fashion police work. Hunt him down and get him. IF the US helps, great, if not we need to do it ourselves. For too long, too many people have been sayting why doesn't the US go after him. It's time for everypone to take responsibility to capture him. |
Uhm, maybe its just me but...
I think Al Qaeda is beyond the point where Bin Laden matters. I dont know to what extent his money is helping the entire thing, but I think the individual cells and local organizations of Al Qaeda is the driving force now.
I bet taking care of Bin Laden woulda worked if you could have managed it in the 90's, but nowadays I think each cell is determined enough to work independantly.
I think the fastest way to end terrorism is to pull out of the Middle East (Iraq, Saudi Arabian bases) and Afghanistan. But then they'd surely demand Israeli land. And if they win that, who knows if they'd stop or keep doing it because of the west's decadence and their potrayal of the west as a bunch of infidels.
I'm scared, very very scared, for the future of the world 
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Well, the people of Kabul might have thought the destruction of their city in '92 was actually a very bad event.... Probably extremely comparable.. |
which of course happened AFTER the West had left the Afghans to their own devices. And after Thatcher was out of office for that matter.
I mean if there were NO Hamas attacks on Israel, and if sometime after Red Ken leaves politics, Israel completes its withdrawl from the the territories, and Hamas THEN destroys Ramallah, I swear I wouldnt complain about Red Ken. I doubt anyone else here would, either.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 08-07-2005 at 23:55
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
And Margaret Thatcher endorsed mujahedin terrorists who indiscriminately killed Afghani civilians.
They're politicians, not moralists. |
but no one mentioned maggie in this thread until you. also it's not the best comparison in the world, but then i guess you already know that...
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:18
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Disagree with that. Taking out Bin Laden would be of huge ceremonial importance. True, the various cells probably don't need him to operate, but it kind of makes a point when you can show that you've rounded up the bastard that masterminded so many attacks. Looking at it from another angle, it can only embolden other cells or terrorist groups to see that Bin Laden could do what he did and continue to run around and thumb his nose at the US et al.
Edit: In response to Ninot.
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
In all likelihood OBL is somewhere in Pakistan. The US has offered Pakistan as much FBI help as they would like in getting him. If they havent its either cause A. more police resources simply wont speed up a slow process or B. They dont want foreign police running around, they insist on doing it themselves or C. Theyre not real eager to catch him. |
I'd say a little from B and a little from C.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Oh, of course, that makes all the difference. I mean, give them billions in arms, hail them as freedom fighters, then if they destroy their own country, well, what did we do???
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We gave them billions of arms and hailed them as freedom fighters cause they were fighting the Soviet Occupation (and if you really want to claim parallels between the Soviet occupation and the Israeli occupation we can , but that will not generate light I think) SOME of the groups engaged in destructive actions, notably those led by Dostum and Hekmatyar. We SHOULD have done something to help stop that, but it hardly makes Thatchers remarks in the 80s retroactively support of terrorism.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ninot
I think its C.
They want US help as long as they have India on their border. Finding him would be a quick end to that. Also, Bin Laden does have alot of support in that region right? Why would any common man in Pakistan be looking to help the U.S.A. and the west over Bin Laden? |
I think its a lot of A - its really not that easy to find the guy, for a lot of reasons, and it depends on slow unraveling of AQ, capturing people with info, establishing order in NWFP, etc.
US help for Paki wouldnt end with OBLs capture, as theres much more to AQ than OBL. And while he has alot of support from Paki Islamists, hes opposed by the secularists in Pakistan, and at least since 9/11 by the Paki military. Hell, AQ tried to kill Perv twice - why wouldnt Perv want to get OBL?
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:18
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Well, if you go that route, it looks like Red Ken has been an apologist for someone who advocates terrorism, rather than advocating terrorism himself (according to my googling).
As for policies rather than words, Ronnie's were undoubtedly worse, as AFAIK, Red Ken hasn't been giving any terrorists any material support.
Last edited by Ramo on 09-07-2005 at 00:41
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Well, if you go that route, it looks like Red Ken has been an apologist for someone who advocates terrorism, rather than advocating terrorism himself (according to my googling).
As for policies rather than words, Ronnie's were undoubtedly worse, as AFAIK, Red Ken hasn't been giving any terrorists any material support. |
to get back on topic, heres what Red Ken said, with a comment by Andrew Sullivan:
"This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful; it is not aimed at presidents or prime ministers; it was aimed at ordinary working class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christians, Hindu and Jew, young and old, indiscriminate attempt at slaughter irrespective of any considerations, of age, of class, of religion, whatever, that isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted faith, it's just indiscriminate attempt at mass murder, and we know what the objective is, they seek to divide London. They seek to turn Londoners against each other and Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack... I wish to speak through you directly, to those who came to London to claim lives, nothing you do, how many of us you kill will stop that flight to our cities where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another, whatever you do, how many you kill, you will fail."
AS - Amen a million times. How dumb are these fascists to take on the Brits and the Americans? Sure, we fight with each other; but up against this kind of evil, our divisions are petty. I also admire Livingstone's ability to see how liberal and left-wing Londoners who have helped build an amazingly vibrant, diverse and tolerant city are particularly affronted by these medieval monsters. Maybe this will help build support for a war that is as unavoidable as it is unlosable. I don't mean we won't continue to differ over means and methods and tactics and strategy. We will. That's our strength. But right and left, we are in this together
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
There's legitmate questions about what Al Qaeda even is, exactly. It's often portrayed as some monolithic super-terrorist organization, but it may just be an umbrella organization that provides expertise, ideological guidance and support for a loose network of local Islamist groups that actually carry out attacks. And even that may be going too far... |
Good comment, and sad to see no one has picked up on it. As mentioned, even if OBL is captured, it may not have an effect. It seems that AQ is a very decentralized group, kind of like the Basques in Spain. It seems they may all be clinging to the AQ name, but they don't have any contact with the guys we think are in charge. Perhaps they've gone to terrorist training camps (maybe not though), but it seems they are just on their own.
That makes it, of course, far harder to stamp out.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Ken Livingstone's involvement with "Troops Out!" in the 80's really wasn't much different from the current political norm on this topic. Viewed with hindsight, he starts looking ahead of his time on that particular topic. |
not really, considering all that had to done before the troops could be pulled out.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Good comment, and sad to see no one has picked up on it. As mentioned, even if OBL is captured, it may not have an effect. It seems that AQ is a very decentralized group, kind of like the Basques in Spain. It seems they may all be clinging to the AQ name, but they don't have any contact with the guys we think are in charge. Perhaps they've gone to terrorist training camps (maybe not though), but it seems they are just on their own.
That makes it, of course, far harder to stamp out. |
It also makes it harder for it to be effective with any kind of strategy. There are reasons organizations adopt centralization. AQ even at its most centralized, when it executed 9/11, which was planned and funded in cooperation with Headquarters, still had loose affiliates like JI in Indonesia. There are a number of AQ HQ's now. Theres still OBL/Zawahiri, and it at least appears that ops in Afghanistan and Pakistan are in touch with them. Theres a group of high level AQ under nominal house arrest in Iran, whose role is unclear. and theres Zarqawi in Iraq, who seems to be in charge of ops in Iraq, Jordan, and KSA, and who in the past ran his own parallel network in Europe. The Madrid bombings seem to have been run out of North Africa.
At this point its too early to say whether the London bombings were by a completely independent group, sharing little more than ideology and broad goals with AQ, or were more directly connected to some larger network.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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Hey! Thank ya, JohnT and Alva! 's good to be back in these parts, if only for a little while...
Aggie As I said. What are you going to do? Invade another Muslim country and be humiliated by a bunch of amateurs again? You guys can't even keep Iraq straight and you're talking about committing more resources.
Wake up. You don't have enough soldiers.
It sounds to me like you're under the impression that we're somehow "losing" in Iraq. While I don't agree with how we got there, and while I admit that the present administration is filled with bumbling idiots who have got us into a situation with no clear exit strategy, that's not quite the same thing as what you're implying.
And, while it is an interesting thought, it does make me wonder what you base your opinion on? Is that based on comparative casuality analysis? If so...I think we come out rather ahead of the game.
Or perhaps it is based on the number of terrorist attacks in the US since we began. If so...I'd say we're rather ahead of the game. Nor can you point, with any reliability, to this latest incident in London as being directly caused by the US's presence in Iraq. In all liklihood, it has much more to do with the trial of one of their own taking place in that city.
Maybe then, it is based on our inability to overthrow the current not-very-nice man, and see to it that a more democratically chosen government was installed. Hmm...nope...we succeeded there too, or are starting to.
So...that said, I'd be curious to know what, sitting in your cozy armchair in a highly capitalized, industrialized nation, looking out the window of your Ivory Tower, your personal victory conditions might be.
(and none of that changes the fact that you're just whining about losing a few good Comrades.  )
Kid And the leaders of the Islamic fundamentalists thank you for helping them recruit.
Yep...for as long as they live. The goal is to clearly illustrate that there's nothing but death to be gained by trying...or perhaps you'd rather us bend over and take one up the arse for the team every time they decide to blow something up. And they will. Even if every westerner left tomorrow, they would.
Axi : Aren't you the one who writes a fantasy novel, Vel?
 Good point, and yes! Unlike some other authors of fiction (*cough* Marx), I do not, however, expect or intend that others will follow my fanciful stories with a fanaticism that can only be compared to religious zeal...
Back to Aggie You are at least 100 times more likely to die in a car crash than a terrorist attack. Even if there were ten of these attacks a year, it would still pale in comparison to auto deaths.
People need to grow up and get real.
While what you say is no doubt true, good sir, that does not somehow make it right, nor mean that it should be blissfully ignored. They want to use violence against us (and they do...they have, and continue to do so), that's cool. And we ought not lose a wink of sleep about returning that favor tenfold.
-=Vel=-
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08-07-2005 23:41
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