04-08-2005 11:03									#61
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what about the effect on the troops?

	04-08-2005 11:08									#62
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The ones I know, and I don't pretend to speak for a few million US servicemen, don't so much mind Iraq as much as deploying period.

Army guys whine alot because they are not used to deploying. Navy guys, well, we are gone one out of every three years anyways. Granted, we are not involved in ground combat, but it is stressful none the less.

The reservists piss me off the most, actually whining because their enlistment didn't end up being free money afterall. As if the military owes them something for having them do the job they were paid 10-15 years to not do.

And it should be remembered that a very great many active duty personel volunteer for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan.

	04-08-2005 13:49									#63
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there were a lot rotating out of Korea to Iraq when I was there.

	04-08-2005 16:13									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Still from a grammar perspective Argumentation is a noun and so is skills. The more appropriate would be argumentative skills, or the like, with argumentative being the adjective modifying the noun, skills.

Which was my point, not that Funny Bunny's use noun 'argumentation' was wrong, but that it was a ten litre term in a two litre tank married with another noun. Alas I had to leave before I could elaborate.

It's like using 'natation essaying' for swimming practice or 'piscatorial embarkation' for goin' fishin'.

I'se jes' joshin' 'n' any case, Mr. Fun. I 'pologizes.

	04-08-2005 16:39									#65
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US had about 5 times as many troops in Vietnam as in Iraq. If you multiply the casualty figures by 5 the numbers are sobering.

and that bomb which took out those marines must have been huge.

	04-08-2005 16:42									#66
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quote: If you multiply the casualty figures by 5 the numbers are sobering.

doesn't work that way, Horsie.

	04-08-2005 17:12									#67
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well it does actually because that creature in your avatar and others like him such as Rumsfeld have deliberately kept troops numbers down to keep casualties down, which has meant coalition forces have never had the numbers to do their job properly.

	04-08-2005 17:27									#68
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Dis, the car accident thing is not comparable or even relevant. Usually done by right wingers trying to downplay the seriousness of situation, and enemy power.

The image that is tried to be given is that it's not really that dangerous at all. However, which one is more dangerous, Iraq's hostile areas or California freeway? You have to be a total tool to answer the freeway, even if there's accidents. WOuld you feel safer driving through Texas, or Iraq, since there's more deaths in Texas roads?

The point is, it's a conflict situation, where people are trying to kill each other ON PURPOSE. So criminals and gangsters kill more in the US. Still not sound comparison.

	04-08-2005 18:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Iraqis are establishing a government. We have finished as much of the job as we can. We ****ed up too much at the begining to ever completely fix the mess we created. The sooner we leave, the sooner the Iraqi people can return to a semblence of normalcy.

Oddly, the Iraqis who ARE establishing a government dont seem to agree.

They cant establish a government without some level of security. They cant do that themselves for at least another year (from what i can gather about the state of Iraqi forces) If we live too soon (which i dont put past the admin) we screw them up as bad as if we stay too long.

	04-08-2005 18:06									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos The ones I know, and I don't pretend to speak for a few million US servicemen, don't so much mind Iraq as much as deploying period. Army guys whine alot because they are not used to deploying. Navy guys, well, we are gone one out of every three years anyways. Granted, we are not involved in ground combat, but it is stressful none the less. The reservists piss me off the most, actually whining because their enlistment didn't end up being free money afterall. As if the military owes them something for having them do the job they were paid 10-15 years to not do. And it should be remembered that a very great many active duty personel volunteer for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan.

i have more sympathy for the reservists. The understanding was that they were weekend warriors, to be mobilized briefly in an emergency. They would be mobilized long term in the event of a great power war, in which the entire society would presumably be mobilized. Now theyre mobilized, but the rest of society goes along like normal. Id be pissed too.

	04-08-2005 18:07									#71
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the Iraqi government is a joke - and even if it can get its act together it can't escape being seen as a US puppet whilst US forces guarantee its security.

	04-08-2005 18:10									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It depends upon when. According to what we are led to believe by our lapdog media, most of Hussein's killing of Iraqis occured following the Gulf War. The reported deaths of the half million children and god knows how many others from sanctions is the fault of the Allies, since it is now clear that Iraq complied with the disarmament. I suppose the invasion could be justified in that we are killing less Iraqis now.

the really huge killing was prior to and just after the gulf war. Killing, torture, and oppression continued for the life of the regime, however. As for the sanctions, Saddam could have gotten them dropped by allowing full inspections back in the 90's (when the neocons were not in power in DC, BTW) but through this period his own military officers thought he had WMD. Evidently he was maintaining the illusion he had them, to frighten off his neighbors, for domestic prestige, whatever. You cant blame the west for the results.

	04-08-2005 18:10									#73
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Being more to the right than left, I also concur, the government is a joke. FOR NOW. Later on, things might happen, but right now it just won't happen. It's like Karzai or what ever his name was, leader of Afghanistan, I mean LOL.

In the future however.. it's different. And to be fair, it's kind of impossible to set up government now and make it look not-puppet.

	04-08-2005 18:11									#74
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat And if you just ignore a can, then it will just dissapear ?

Eventually, yes. Ever hear of decomposition?

	04-08-2005 18:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark As for the sanctions, Saddam could have gotten them dropped by allowing full inspections back in the 90's

According to Scott Ritter, they did allow full inspections of what they were supposed to allow. The only thing they tried to keep hidden from the inspection team was Hussein's where abouts, which given that the CIA was using the inspection team as intel gathering, was hardly undreasonable, and beyond the scope of the inspection regime anyway. The catch-22 was, of course, that until the inspectors knew what the Iraqis were hiding, they couldn't know it wasn't something they weren't charged with looking at, and being naturally suspicious, assumed it was something they should be looking at.

	04-08-2005 18:19									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse the Iraqi government is a joke - and even if it can get its act together it can't escape being seen as a US puppet whilst US forces guarantee its security.

what about it exactly is a joke? The current govt was only formed a couple of months ago, and has a very difficult situation to deal with.

Seen as a US puppet by whom? By the folks who voted for it? By the Sunnis who boycotted, but are now participating in talks on the constitution? By the insurgents? By the Jihadi suicide bombers? By left leaning aussies? Some of those groups already dont see it as a puppet and some will always see any iraqi govt that isnt hostile to the US as a puppet.

	04-08-2005 18:21									#77
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the trouble with people like you and the Bush administration is you are incapable of seeing the situation as it is rather than as you would like it to be.

Bush in particular seems completely unable to separate facts and reality from aspirations and spin.

	04-08-2005 18:22									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to Scott Ritter, they did allow full inspections of what they were supposed to allow. The only thing they tried to keep hidden from the inspection team was Hussein's where abouts, which given that the CIA was using the inspection team as intel gathering, was hardly undreasonable, and beyond the scope of the inspection regime anyway. The catch-22 was, of course, that until the inspectors knew what the Iraqis were hiding, they couldn't know it wasn't something they weren't charged with looking at, and being naturally suspicious, assumed it was something they should be looking at.

there is no evidence other than Ritter that the CIA was using the inspectors to gather general Intell. The CIA WAS consulting with inspectors, to let them know of suspected weapons sites - as were other western intell agencies as well.

	04-08-2005 18:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse the trouble with people like you and the Bush administration is you are incapable of seeing the situation as it is rather than as you would like it to be.

please indicate precisely what i have said that doesnt match how the situation is. In doing so please note i dont share all the beliefs of the Bush admin, so dont attribute them to me.

	04-08-2005 18:25									#80
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Ok here's a clue. No one sees it nothing but US puppet gov right now. The whole world is the right answer to your question who doesn't see it as blaablaablaa. That's the right answer like it or not. I'm not attacking you or the gov. I'm saying like it is.

	04-08-2005 18:25									#81
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark there is no evidence other than Ritter that the CIA was using the inspectors to gather general Intell. The CIA WAS consulting with inspectors, to let them know of suspected weapons sites - as were other western intell agencies as well.

Are you living in a complete dream world? This post perfectly illustrates my point about your capacity for wishful thinking.

	04-08-2005 18:26									#82
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HEY! Discuss the topic... NOT THE POSTERS...

	04-08-2005 18:33									#83
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But it's not like it would be possible any other way.. so it's not a blame game. That 'power' was given. And what is given can be taken away, and therefore it's not truly real as of now. But like I said, in the future the status will change.

	04-08-2005 18:45									#84
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quote: well it does actually because that creature in your avatar and others like him such as Rumsfeld have deliberately kept troops numbers down to keep casualties down, which has meant coalition forces have never had the numbers to do their job properly.

Well, that is a very interesting and lonely viewpoint, because the thinking of everyone else on your side of the fence is that Rumsfelds insistance on using less troops is the reason for the "high" casualties we are experiancing now.

You guys need to get your story straight.

	04-08-2005 18:49									#85
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quote: have more sympathy for the reservists. The understanding was that they were weekend warriors, to be mobilized briefly in an emergency.

That was their understanding, it was definetly not what they signed up for.

The fact is if you joined the reserves after the gulf war and left before 9/11, you basically got a free extra salary. I don't hold that against them, but when your called up you go.

I personally think we could do the job with all active duty units, but oh well.

	04-08-2005 18:54									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Well, that is a very interesting and lonely viewpoint, because the thinking of everyone else on your side of the fence is that Rumsfelds insistance on using less troops is the reason for the "high" casualties we are experiancing now. You guys need to get your story straight.

Its hardly a lonely viewpoint. every time coalition forces go to plug one hole a new one is created somewhere else.

	04-08-2005 18:56									#87
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Which of course means that too few troops is the reason for "high" casualties.

That is the opposite of what you said.

	04-08-2005 18:58									#88
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no thats not what I said.

	04-08-2005 19:00									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos That was their understanding, it was definetly not what they signed up for. The fact is if you joined the reserves after the gulf war and left before 9/11, you basically got a free extra salary. I don't hold that against them, but when your called up you go. I personally think we could do the job with all active duty units, but oh well.

Im not denying what their legal obligation was. I dont think anyone in 1994, say, expected wed have this level of NG mobilization at a time when the whole society and economy were so unmobilized.

	04-08-2005 19:03									#90
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Patrokolos: I think AH is content to bash the decisions that others are making and it will be very difficult to pin him down on an opinion about what should be done positively.