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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
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I'd like my question answered, not evaded. I'd like to know what action you would take to correct these wrongs.
Last edited by DanS on 04-08-2005 at 20:23
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Bereta_Eder
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get off peoples backs for christ sake. look at you like ravens on the body of the iraqis and middle easterners.
hang on strong brothas
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Bereta_Eder
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one would say
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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i of course recalled my own questioning of sanctions on South Africa. (I wonder if anyones done any studies on whether sanctions on RSA caused an increase in death rates) I was told way back when that sanctions were justified, since they were supported by the Iraqi National Congress - oops, the African National Congress, and they represented the people of south africa, and if they thought suffering to overthrow the regime was worthwhile, I had no moral standing to question it. When I asked about Buthelezi, who opposed sanctions, i was told he was a puppet of the regime. Oddly, hes still a factor in SA politics, even though the apartheid regime is gone.
Which is neither here nor there, wrt sanctions, necessarily. Just some thoughts.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I'd like my question answered, not evaded. I'd like to know what action you would take to correct these wrongs. |
Don't worry Dan, you and Patroklos haven't answered any of my questions so what makes you think Che and AH should answer yours?
Personally I think they have - it's just you guys don't seem to be able to understand their answers...
As for a few points, over and above the ones that the pro Iraq invasion side have ignored...
It is true that Saddam was indeed responsible for killing many thousands of enemies after the Gulf War - but then the bulk of those were the marsh Arabs that Bush snr stabbed in the back by inciting to rise up against him and then stood by as Saddam crushed them. But then what would you do in Saddam's place, let the uprising succeed!?
So you can't really blame him for that - apart from being perhaps a bit more clumsy than the US attack on Falluja...
Basically as far as I can tell, most of the people killed post GWI were direct enemies, not indiscriminate killings - nope, THOSE were caused by the sanctions by the West!
As for BEFORE GWI, well those don't count because Saddam was our friend then - which basically means that whilst we ourselves might not haved gasses thousands of Kurdish civilians, we certainly stood by and supplied him with the means to do it...
So Saddam was basically contained with his wings clipped and not exactly causing anyone any problems at a time when say the Sudanese were already actively commiting genocide, or the North Koreans were putting the finishing touches on their nukes - or Bin Laden and the Taliban were in full flight and total disarray...
Sorry, but unless the pro Iraq invasionists were expecting as many US soldiers in Iraq years later as during the start of the war, 15,000 US casualties, an insurgency as strong as ever, worsening security, no WMDs, no Al Qaeda connection then they are dead wrong - especially considering this vaunted democracy Bush is espousing will probably end up as an Islamist ally of Iran(which also happens to be a democracy!)...
Now that (to paraphrase Saddam) would be the Mother of all Owngoals!!!
As for whether the US Army is dangerously overstretched or not - of course they are overstretched if they are having to resort to reservists as frontline troops! I would even go so far as to say that their equipment is overstretched if they are using amphibious vehicles as opposed to proper land vehicles! How many Humvees and Bradleys have been destroyed in this war I wonder?
I remember just after the hostilities were officially 'ended' calculating that if things continued the way things were at the time that there would be about 2,000 killed in two years - I remember all the chickenhawks laughing at me at the time saying that things would quieten down and that would never happen...
I've also said that the thing that might eventually derail the US armies' efforts in Iraq is when their recruits dry up - after all the type of interventionist policies Bush is adopting these days, I can see the US needing more troops, not less...
The Iranians must be laughing their heads off right now...
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
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I have a good idea about what I support and why.
I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind what you think should be done. As of right now, it doesn't add up. That is, unless you basically believe that Saddam should have been given a free hand to do as he wished, the terms of the suspension of hostilities for the Gulf War be damned.
As far as I view it, by supporting the Gulf War, you've left a turd in my in-tray, not the other way around.
Last edited by DanS on 05-08-2005 at 02:44
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:37
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God you are a character.
quote:
But then what would you do in Saddam's place, let the uprising succeed!? |
Probobly not become a meglomanic dictator with a perchant for mass murder, but if I already were I would crush the rebellion. I would then expect all decent people in the world (I guess not you) to blame me for for it.
quote:
Basically as far as I can tell, most of the people killed post GWI were direct enemies, not indiscriminate killings - nope, THOSE were caused by the sanctions by the West! |
Does that include the young girls who had their heads crushed by driving over them by Uday? After he raped them of course.
And if by direct enemies you mean people who stood up for democracy, freedom, or pretty much anything then sure. Direct Enemies. That definetly makes it all Okay 
quote:
As for BEFORE GWI, well those don't count |
Yeah I guess your right. They are just people, and brown ones at that. I don't see why they should "count" either.
quote:
So Saddam was basically contained with his wings clipped and not exactly causing anyone any problems at a time |
Except 20 odd million Iraqis, but they don't "count," right now I remember.
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Sudan were already actively commiting genocide |
Wait a second, I thought you didn't support invading countries to better the lives of those in it. Sudan wasn't hurting anyone outside their borders any more than Iraq, they had their "wings clipped."
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Sorry, but unless the pro Iraq invasionists were expecting as many US soldiers in Iraq years later as during the start of the war |
I was.
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15,000 US casualties |
Wow, thats a nice number. You understand that at this rate we could stay there for 10 more years and not reach that number. That is rhetorical, I know you don't.
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an insurgency as strong as ever |
Hardly, they have failed in every objective. Can't stop elections, can't cut supply routes, can't stop utilites, can't stop oil production, can't stop Iraq security forcers recruiting, can't stop the interim government, can't hold territory, can't break US military moral, can't break US civilian moral (dispite your best efforts), can't get popular Iraqi support....
So if their only mission is to simply exist and kill indiscriminatly, which its not, sure they are as "successful" as ever.
quote:
vaunted democracy Bush is espousing will probably end up as an Islamist ally of Iran(which also happens to be a democracy!)...
Now that (to paraphrase Saddam) would be the Mother of all Owngoals!!! |
Did you just use a hypothetical, and a poor one at that, as a point?
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As for whether the US Army is dangerously overstretched or not - of course they are overstretched if they are having to resort to reservists as frontline troops! |
Dangerously, yet we still met all our worldwide demands without mobilizing? Interesting. I want you to reserach how many active duty division the US army has, research how many we have in Iraq, and then get back to me on how overstreached we are. I could tell you, but I want you to do it because you really need to learn how to research, as this thread has made abundantly clear.
But I will throw you a bone, our peace time military is
under stress.
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I would even go so far as to say that their equipment is overstretched if they are using amphibious vehicles as opposed to proper land vehicles |
Marines. That should be a good enough hint.
As for the rest, ah hell, why even bother.
Last edited by Patroklos on 05-08-2005 at 03:22
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Max Webster
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quote:
Originally posted by Zero
Try being there jackass.
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I deserved that. Its obviously not all fun in the sun as I implied. But I'm sure you knew that before you joined the army.
But anyway I thought the "another one bites the dust video or rather slideshow was in extremely bad taste.
Another thought I had was after watching the other two videos, was with all that firepower how could the US not win the war against the insurgents. But I guess its not that simple.
I wish more soldiers from the Iraq theatre would express their thoughts and experiences here.
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Max Webster
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat
It might sound offending, but in my view this is palin BS. |
quote:
Such as ? Please tell what US did to provoke hate against US,
It is not me that want to know the answer on this - it is all secret services, governements, political partiies, organisations and common people.
If you really has the answer, please tell - we all want to know. |
No offence taken. But why is it BS? They have been fighting somebody somewhere all through their history. When your bouncing around in other folks backyards, for various reasons you tend to make enemies. Also some folks in this world just don't like the US because of their culture, religion and wealth.
I think they states is suffering the fallout from past imperialist powers who made decisions that haunt us today.
Complicated world. Sometimes I wonder why I even try to bother to understand it.
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Max Webster
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Using reservist as frontline troops might actually be a good idea in a war like this, as those guys are older and more mature, thus better skilled in "winning hearts and minds".
A Swedish reporter in Afghanistan back in 2002 observed that the American reservists (or perhaps they were National Guard, I can't recall) were polite but firm and confident. They negotiated with village elders and tried to respect the local culture. When their unit was later rotated with a bunch of regulars, the local civilians became more hostile, as the young cowboys behaved like nervous Rambos: shouting, kicking in doors and trying to look macho. |
I think the US soldiers are not only soldiers but diplomats. I think the key in reducing american enemies is in their attitude and conduct when dealing with non-hostile locals of any area of conflict.
When an american soldier does something nasty, intentionally or unintentionally he creates the potential of creating another insurgent.
Very tricky thing when at times your not sure who your enemies are.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Max Webster
No offence taken. But why is it BS? They have been fighting somebody somewhere all through their history. When your bouncing around in other folks backyards, for various reasons you tend to make enemies. Also some folks in this world just don't like the US because of their culture, religion and wealth.
I think they states is suffering the fallout from past imperialist powers who made decisions that haunt us today.
Complicated world. Sometimes I wonder why I even try to bother to understand it. |
Ok, it was to be short I used that abbreviation 
It is right that US has been involved in wars through it's lifetime, but compared to countries as UK, France, Belgium, Germany etc, they are newbeeies and in some way amateurs.
Today it is islamic groups that are claiming that US is their enemy, but before first Iraq war, the closest US has been in military involvment has been the Philipines, and that ended a lot of years ago.
Thew only connection to ME and islam I can find is the claim that the US government is controlled by Israel/jews and that I really can't see as a valid claim - that makes as much sense as ID/creationism.
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04-08-2005 20:09
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