05-08-2005 00:30									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Or, if your memory stretches back further than five years, you'd realise that by your definitions the most dangerous religion up until that time was Christianity.

5 years??

Hamas began its campaign of terror before the 1992 Oslo accords, and subverted said accords from the beginng.

Radical jihadis murdered civilians in Algeria and Egypt throughout the 90's. Egyptian Islamic Jihad assasinated Anwar Sadat, Nobel Laureate and peacemaker, in 1979.

	05-08-2005 00:43									#62
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Yep. But that ain't London.

I never claimed that it was a good measure, you see?

	05-08-2005 00:44									#63
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thanks lotm, good post

ph and whaleboy (once again), the question asked was which religion is more dangerous, that means now, in the present time, considering what's happend recently, just in case you were confused... talking about things which happened hundreds of years ago is wholly besides the point, but then both of you know that already. :/

ph, it's sad that you hate christians so much

	05-08-2005 00:47									#64
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Is it a religious issue? It strikes me as being far more about politics and social division, personally.

	05-08-2005 00:50									#65
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and i would agree with you, but i was taking issue with ph's ridiculous statement made earlier in the thread.

	05-08-2005 01:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Is it a religious issue? It strikes me as being far more about politics and social division, personally.

Politics? There are plenty of people who disagree with their countries foreign policy, as a general rule they dont express this by blowing themselves up, a method that is not likely to be successful in this instance anyway. Social divisions are certainly a real concern, but not simple to tease out - most muslims dont express their problems with discrimination by blowing themselves up, much less other immigrants. And many who do blow themselves up are relatively successful. SOME muslims, in reaction to their personal social experiences, and under the influence of CERTAIN religious leaders, and seeing in political events abroad not so much a realistic political conflict, but a further humiliation of muslims, which the religious leaders make sense of, go bombing.

Of course we should try to achieve just results, fair to ALL parties, in the mideast, Kashmir, etc. But the solutions the jihadis look to are NOT going to be fair to all parties. ANd of course we should integrate different groups, and avoid ghettozation (wasnt that what this was about?) But to ignore the radical preachers, the radical mosques and madrassahs, and the part that CERTAIN STRAINS of Islam play - we do that at our peril.

	05-08-2005 01:59									#67
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Among those strains of Islam, I see a distinct lack of our Abrahamic brothers attempting to teach us the way. It's not a religious war- it's politics with an unconvincing veneer of hotly-disputed dogma.

	05-08-2005 02:07									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Among those strains of Islam, I see a distinct lack of our Abrahamic brothers attempting to teach us the way. It's not a religious war- it's politics with an unconvincing veneer of hotly-disputed dogma.

I dont understand the first sentence. I didnt say it was a religious war - but religion is an essential part of it.

During the cold war there were socialists, even some Marxists, who were firmly in the Western camp (not to mention some communists who opposed Soviet block expansion) - and there was plenty of cynicism in the Soviet leadership, at least in the Brezhnev years. That DOESNT mean that would could ignore Marxism-Leninism and ideology and understand the cold war. WE are not fighting a religious war = and the motivations of individual recruits may vary on their side - and even of some AQ allies - but AQ's leadership is CERTAINLY fighting a religious war. Its not a war to convert us, necessarily - its a war to establish an Islamic caliphate, impose Sharia in all Muslim lands, and expel the cultural presence of the west from all muslim lands. Once the glorious caliphate is created, conversion is expected to take place more or less spontaneously, IIUC.

	05-08-2005 03:40									#69
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney ph, it's sad that you hate christians so much

Hate is a very strong word. There is this massive misunderstanding that I 'hate', that this somehow consumes me, when in fact for me, it plays no part in my existence whatsoever. I just find Christianity, as I do any other religion, to be really, really silly.

	05-08-2005 03:44									#70
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and i find 28 year old virgins very silly, but there you go.

	05-08-2005 03:46									#71
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Oooh, now getting personal is really not called for. If you can't win the argument with rational debate, then don't take part.

	05-08-2005 03:50									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Biblebashers lecturing me on irrationality

	05-08-2005 03:51									#73
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Valid point - you get presented with the facts and you ignore them only to go with your own little fairytale instead. My sex life, however, is completely irrelevent to this debate. It's just you looking stupid now Cockney...because you want to say something so nasty because I've hit a nerve. Ask yourself, how have I hit a nerve so easily? Is your belief in your faith not rigid enough to stand up to it?

	05-08-2005 03:53									#74
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quote: originally posted by lord of the mark its a war to establish an Islamic caliphate, impose Sharia in all Muslim lands, and expel the cultural presence of the west from all muslim lands.

With AQ leadership as the top (as caliphs), which is why Laz was saying it's mostly politics with religious veneer thrown on top. The AQ people want to rule, they have a way in which to do it by inciting the flames of religion. It works because so many are dissastisfied.

When the IRA was bombing Protestants left and right people weren't talk about a fight for the future of Catholicism. They realized it was mostly a political struggle that took on religious clothing.

	05-08-2005 03:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Valid point - you get presented with the facts and you ignore them only to go with your own little fairytale instead. My sex life, however, is completely irrelevent to this debate. It's just you looking stupid now Cockney...because you want to say something so nasty because I've hit a nerve. Ask yourself, how have I hit a nerve so easily? Is your belief in your faith not rigid enough to stand up to it?

Indeed... Cockney, you just look like a git who couldn't defend yourself in debate now.

	05-08-2005 04:09									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison My sex life, however, is completely irrelevent to this debate.

as are my religious beliefs, didn't stop you though.

quote: Valid point - you get presented with the facts and you ignore them only to go with your own little fairytale instead.

facts, i love it



sorry could you remind us what facts you've brought to this debate? thus far you've brought an idiotic statement, which you'e backed up with things which are completely beside the point, well done etc. :/

	05-08-2005 04:11									#77
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney as are my religious beliefs, didn't stop you though. facts, i love it sorry could you remind us what facts you've brought to this debate? thus far you've brought an idiotic statement, which you'e backed up with things which are completely beside the point, well done etc. :/

Simply replying to your assertion that you, as a Christian, see Islam as dangerous. Rather rich, don't you think, considering some of the atrocities that are done in the name of God? But you don't seem to figure that out without resorting to the most pathetic ploy of attacking me personally with the one small thing you can find to attack

	05-08-2005 04:39									#78
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well you might be right, except i've not once said anything about MY religious beliefs in this thread.

but since you’re so eager to discuss the issue ( ), lets discuss it. this is your ‘original’ post on the matter.

quote: Is it just me who considers both Islam and Christianity to be an equal danger. I am no fan of religion and I certainly have no preference for one over the other...

now i think that islam is more dangerous, at the moment, over here – just to avoid any deliberate confusion…

this post i think, sums why i think your wrong.

quote: here's a question - members of which religion recently killed more than 50 people in 4 attacks on our capital and then tried to do the self-same thing two weeks later? and a bonus question, 25% of the members of which religion (according to a yougov survey) sympathise with the motives of the bombers and 6% of the members of the same religion said the bombings were fully justified? answers on a postcard to 'no really, i'm not just some deluded anti-christian bigot' :/

so lets hear you back up your statement, with something relevant if you’d be so kind…

edit: formating etc.

	05-08-2005 05:22									#79
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Excuse me for a second.

There are no such thing as seperate human races, only seperate cultures

Thank you. Pet peeve of mine.

	05-08-2005 08:04									#80
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney ph, it's sad that you hate christians so much

I can't recall PH has ever said that he hated Christians. Just because he dispises religion doesn't mean he hate those who believe.

	05-08-2005 08:06									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 There are no such thing as seperate human races, only seperate cultures

Yes. The so called "races" is a dubious concept with no objective facts backing it up.

	05-08-2005 08:18									#82
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UR, it may be Ming's jurisdiction, but shouldn't someone say "debate the issues, not the posters", even if that has passed some .

	05-08-2005 12:01									#83
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Imran,

Thanks. I missed C0ckney's jab at PH the first time skimming through the thread.

	05-08-2005 12:05									#84
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quote: ph and whaleboy (once again), the question asked was which religion is more dangerous, that means now, in the present time, considering what's happend recently, just in case you were confused... talking about things which happened hundreds of years ago is wholly besides the point, but then both of you know that already. :/

Your use of circular logic is really quite laughable. You could boil down what you're saying to "which religion was most dangerous on 7/7 on the number 30 bus at 9 in the morning", the answer would of course be obvious but meaningless since it becomes a matter of the individual at the concluded terrorist attack you're trying to use as a premise!

Just as now it is meaningless to speak of one "dangerous religion", as opposed to dangerous terrorists, which few of us would disagree with.

The best your argument can be used for is slinging mud, but then that's the best that you're able to do anyway so perhaps we shouldn't be so surprised .

With regards to things that happened hundreds of years ago, the point being made was that no religion is inherently more dangerous than any other, in other words Christianity is just as bad as Islam, and in a wider sense religion in general is a recipe for disaster. Unless you think that the notion of organised religion has undergone some enormous seismic shift in the last few centuries that fundamentally changes its very nature (but then that would defy the point wouldn't it?), then the lesson from history still stands.

To make your argument you need to be able to show that it is mainstream Islam that is driving the terrorists as opposed to motivating them (since we can all find ourselves arbitrary motivations and warped justifications to do just about anything). It's an impossible claim to make with any religion, more so with Islam since it is so decentralised, and it makes far more sense for us to distinguish fundamentalist Islam with mainstream Islam as two separate entities.

So I repeat my point that to tar all of Islam with the same brush is a display of some brilliantly childish logic and defies the common sense that seems so uncommon in your posts.

	05-08-2005 14:58									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Krill **** it. If Davis wants every single person in this country to have the same values, I fail to see how he is any different to a suicide bomber.

1) He's still alive.

2) He talks about what he wants publicly rather than killing people randomly and issuing demands on a shadowy web site.

Not to say that he's not a pr!ck mind you.

	05-08-2005 15:13									#86
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney now i think that islam is more dangerous, at the moment, over here – just to avoid any deliberate confusion…

*sigh*

whaleboy, when someone asks you if it's more dangerous to cross a road from where you're standing or at the crossing 20 yards up the road, what do you say to them? do you tell them that you can't compare the two because of the inherent dangers of crossing the road and then proceed to talk about how the road was 500 years ago. or do you give them a simple answer to a simple question.

	05-08-2005 15:30									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy To make your argument you need to be able to show that it is mainstream Islam that is driving the terrorists as opposed to motivating them (since we can all find ourselves arbitrary motivations and warped justifications to do just about anything). It's an impossible claim to make with any religion, more so with Islam since it is so decentralised, and it makes far more sense for us to distinguish fundamentalist Islam with mainstream Islam as two separate entities.

being clever with words doesn't make you right

your local parish church is a world apart from the ones associated with say, american 'televangelists', they stand for very different things, but no one would argue that they are not both christians.

likewise it (should at least...) go without saying that ordinary muslims are different from the muslims who carry out bombings. but they are, at the end of the day, still all muslims and have in common the islamic faith.

	05-08-2005 15:36									#88
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Politics? There are plenty of people who disagree with their countries foreign policy, as a general rule they dont express this by blowing themselves up, a method that is not likely to be successful in this instance anyway.

No, but like the Real IRA, Mujahedin, and the INLA and the IRA and the Baader Meinhof, PFLP, PLO, Japanese Red Army, Red Brigades, ETA, PKK, et cetera et cetera, they'll happily shoot, bomb or incinerate other people to achieve their aims.

All that's really different is that the members of the more avowedly secular groups aren't usually willing to kill themselves when killing others.

	05-08-2005 18:40									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Krill **** it. If Davis wants every single person in this country to have the same values, I fail to see how he is any different to a suicide bomber.

Bit harsh to compare Davis with a suicide bomber. I think that what Davis means is the same thing that the CRE and many others have been saying.

Multiculturism should be about finding shared ground, rather than celebrating difference and the divisive "Identity Politics".

The problem with the discussion in Britain at the moment is not Islamophobia, but Islamophobiaphobia. Under these circumstances, no-one is allowed to criticise Islamism (whilst westerners are encouraged to hate themselves). It is called "divisive" to call a fascist a fascist.

I grew up in a free country where as an atheist I was free to reject and ridcule Christianity. That's my democratic right and I'm proud of my civilisation for this valuable and essential freedom. Under Islamic Law, I can get killed for being an apostate if I reject Islam.

So, I prefer to live in a western democracy, and should be entitled to say so. It seems, though, that I'm no longer in a country where secular democracy was an uncontestable value. It should still be.

People must learn the difference between gratuitously hating foreigners (racism), and essential defence of our democracy against racist, theocratic fascism (not racism).

	05-08-2005 18:58									#90
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quote: Well so far in Europe Christians have killed more Christians and Muslims than Muslims have killed Christians.

Ahem, ever heard about islamic conquest of european countries?