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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Ahem, ever heard about islamic conquest of european countries? |
Yes.
Ever heard of World Wars One and Two, the Seven Years War, the Franco-Prussian War, the Reconquista, the Balkan Wars, the War of the Spanish Succession, The Russo-Turkish War, The Thirty Years War, the Wars of Religion, et cetera, et cetera.... ?
Note- I said this:
quote:
Well so far in Europe Christians have killed more Christians and Muslims than Muslims have killed Christians. |
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Datajack Franit
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Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
Ever heard of World Wars One and Two, the Seven Years War, the Franco-Prussian War, the Reconquista, the Balkan Wars, the War of the Spanish Succession, The Russo-Turkish War, The Thirty Years War, the Wars of Religion, et cetera, et cetera.... ? |
But these are our roots, no matter what they look like. And we at least admit what is wrong with our societies nowadays, and what WAS wrong in our past. I can't see any trace of this process in Islam, still blaming Christian Europe for the Crusades (as if the arab invasion of Spain, France and the Balcans was any better)
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Datajack Franit
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Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
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Just look at Al Qaeda's recent messages, asking the "crusaders" to retreat from Iraq.
But what worries me the most is people actually trying to understand their point of view, coming to the fact that they are partially right, and justifying their discovery by dismantling our society piece by piece, as if caring about our past and our roots is something to be ashamed of. Like allowing in our countries persons that REFUSE to integrate, and these are the results.
Now they're beginning to kill us, and what do we do? We try to understand them, we blame our society not for allowing them in, but for giving them a reason to kill us. Of course it has to be our fault. It's Iraq.
As if WE were to blame if those bastards, grown in a modern, civilized and free country decided to slaughter innocent civilians.
What is our answer to this? The evil Christians, their atrocities during the Crusades, colonialism, Israel, Iraq, let's discuss with moderate Islam, let's get rid of our culture and values while allowing others to use theirs as a shield. And you are all surprised that such things happen in Europe. What's the difference between England and Israel? Priorities.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
But what worries me the most is people actually trying to understand their point of view, coming to the fact that they are partially right, and justifying their discovery by dismantling our society piece by piece, as if caring about our past and our roots is something to be ashamed of. |
What are you getting on at?
quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Like allowing in our countries persons that REFUSE to integrate, and these are the results. |
So you are asserting that people who don't intergate will commit terrorist acts in an indefinite future? That's simply laughable.
quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Now they're beginning to kill us, and what do we do? We try to understand them, we blame our society not for allowing them in, but for giving them a reason to kill us. Of course it has to be our fault. It's Iraq. |
You don't think US and UK foreign policies have something to do with Islams hating them? You don't consider the invasion of Iraq boneheaded, ill-conceived, and completely failed to achieve any of the stated objectives (e.g. BCN weapons, security, etc.)?
quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
As if WE were to blame if those bastards, grown in a modern, civilized and free country decided to slaughter innocent civilians. |
Lots of people born and grown in Western countries kill innocent people. Try again.
quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
What is our answer to this? The evil Christians, their atrocities during the Crusades, colonialism, Israel, Iraq, let's discuss with moderate Islam, let's get rid of our culture and values while allowing others to use theirs as a shield. |
You are not even making sense with your bald assertions.
quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
And you are all surprised that such things happen in Europe. What's the difference between England and Israel? Priorities. |
I don't see Israel is free of terrorist attacks. Not one bit.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Like allowing in our countries persons that REFUSE to integrate, and these are the results.
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Well European colonizers set such a good example... 
Look, it's a matter of time. The United Kingdom as it is today is a remarkable synthesis of large waves of immigrants, from ancient Celts, to northern European Vikings, to Jews, Romans, Africans, Irish, Jews from Tsarist Russia and Poland, people from the Indian sub-continent, Chinese...
Some of the Bengali mosques in Spitalfields and Brick Lane are housed in what used to be synagogues. Before that they were French Protestant Huguenot churches. South Wales has a blended community of descendants of Somalian sailors, the north east of England has descendants of Yemeni sailors, London Manchester and Liverpool Chinatowns and large mixed race communities.
I have Muslim friends who don't wear the veil, or the jilbab or hijab- a Sikh friend who doesn't have a turban, or a beard, and so on.
But what I don't look forward to is some artificial 'British' identity that people are meant to conform to and that ignores the contributions of immigrants and children of immigrants- like me.
Somalis in Wales:
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....Cardiff has the largest British-born Somali population in the UK. They were originally drawn to Cardiff as seamen at the end of the 19th century, shortly after the opening of the Suez canal, to work in the thriving docks. These young men came as sailors, not as refugees or slaves, driven by the desire to earn money to buy more livestock back in Somalia. Some of them settled down and married local women, whilst others returned home periodically to visit their families, living in boarding houses during their time onshore. The boarding houses were run by Somalis and provided the visiting sailors with the familiarity of shared language and customs. |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig...article_2.shtml
Yemenis in South Shields:
quote:
The Yemeni had left their own country to seek work on British ships that passed through the colony of Aden.
For many, their journey eventually led them to North East England.
Early Settlers
Once ashore in South Shields, the Yemeni often had trouble finding accommodation due to racial discrimination.
Local Yemeni residents were proud of their traditions
As a result, Ali Said opened the first Arab Seaman's Boarding House in August 1909 in the Holborn riverside district of South Shields.
The Yemeni community generally kept to themselves but the First World War was to change all that.
Manpower shortages in the navy led the government to encourage Yemeni men into the country. By the end of the war the Yemeni community in South Shields numbered 3,000.
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Liverpool's Chinatown, oldest in Europe:
[QUOTE]Gregory Lee, Professor of Chinese at the University of Lyon, returns to his native Liverpool, where his grandfather arrived from China in 1911, to tell a personal history of the earliest Chinese settlement in Europe. Today a gleaming traditional Chinese arch welcomes people to Liverpool's Chinatown but this overshadows darker stories of fear, exploitation and invisibility.
In Anfield cemetery, Lee finds the graves of the Chinese who dug the trenches in the First World War. He recounts how, after serving Britain in the Second World War, Chinese sailors were deported, and how such suspicion persists today in attitudes to Chinese cockle pickers.
He exchanges stories with Joe Phillips, son of a Chinese sailor and a Liverpudlian woman who, after ignoring it for years, has come to appreciate and explore his Chinese heritage. [QUOTE]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/feature2/pip/t584s/
Welcome to Manchester, D.F. :
 Attachment: manchester.jpg
This has been downloaded 49 time(s).
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:37
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quote:
But what I don't look forward to is some artificial 'British' identity that people are meant to conform to and that ignores the contributions of immigrants and children of immigrants- like me.
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A shared identity need not include Daily Mail style guff about Queen and Flag, but a statement of our secular, open, democratic, rational, scientific, free and equal values.
Q : Who said anything about ignoring contibutions of immigrants?
I'm Mongrel English - with French, Welsh, Scottish and central European ancestry in the last two or thee generations. I love my country because this is allowed, because of its rich history of people coming here to be free.
You are right to say that in time, integration can happen anyway, but only among people who accept the spirit of tolerance. People who want to kill and threaten us to establish a racist, sexist, freedom-hating National Socialist style theocratic hell should be a concern to all other ethnicities in Britain.
I don't believe in violently imposing our system on other cultures, so I think it reasonable to insist that other cultures don't violently impose their system on us.
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Datajack Franit
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Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
So you are asserting that people who don't intergate will commit terrorist acts in an indefinite future? That's simply laughable. |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../ixnewstop.html
quote:
The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming. The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts. The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events. Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are. YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community's response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders. However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified. Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do. Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent. A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way. YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair's description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous". Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive. The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old. However, there are few signs in YouGov's findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere. The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not. |
Yeah right. Laughable.
quote:
You don't think US and UK foreign policies have something to do with Islams hating them? You don't consider the invasion of Iraq boneheaded, ill-conceived, and completely failed to achieve any of the stated objectives (e.g. BCN weapons, security, etc.)? |
Answer to my question. Did islamic terrorism begin in the moment right after US invasion of Iraq? No way. You may object the reasons for Iraq war, but 9-11 happened before any kind of US aggression to muslim world. And plans of terrorism acts in Europe performed by islamic groups have been around for the last 10 years. What about this
http://www.voltairenetwork.net/article84.html#nh4
quote:
Actually, antiterrorist law does not seek to establish guilt regarding crimes committed but to prove that certain Muslim radical groups intend to commit these crimes and that’s why it operates in such a capricious and unconvincing way. That’s the way it was in the case of the “Frankfurt” group, who was accused by the German law of having planned an attack against the cathedral of Strasbourg in December 2000, although the group did not carry it out. |
quote:
I don't see Israel is free of terrorist attacks. Not one bit. |
Maybe you should read again my post.
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Datajack Franit
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Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
Look, it's a matter of time. The United Kingdom as it is today is a remarkable synthesis of large waves of immigrants, from ancient Celts, to northern European Vikings, to Jews, Romans, Africans, Irish, Jews from Tsarist Russia and Poland, people from the Indian sub-continent, Chinese... |
I am not complaining about multi-culturalism! Myself I am foreign born in my own country. My family is as well. Neither are any of the ethnic groups you posted. Hosting various cultures don't pose a threat to security in a democratic nation. The problems begin when you have one of these groups supporting, actively or not, terrorism acts against others.
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Bereta_Eder
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where're you from datajacky?
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Bereta_Eder
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Ah same as Spiffor.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
The problems begin when you have one of these groups supporting, actively or not, terrorism acts against others. |
Like British born Protestants in Northern Ireland (the descendants of immigrants) against British born Catholics in Northern Ireland.
People have been complaining about immigrants ever since immigration and emigration existed. Good grief, there were riots against Flemish weavers in England in the Middle Ages.
quote:
Q : Who said anything about ignoring contibutions of immigrants? |
Cort Haus
These kind of people perhaps:
the same paper that was so keen on a certain Herr Hitler before WWII and so keen on Oswald Mosley
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Mosley attracted members from other right-wing groups such as the British Fascisti, National Fascists and the Imperial Fascist League. By 1934 the BUF had 40,000 members and was able to establish its own drinking clubs and football teams. The BUF also gained the support of Lord Rothermere and the Daily Mail. |
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Pfascists.htm
and which did so much to label the emigrant Irish population of Great Britain as donkey-jacketed slope browed terrorists whenever the I.R.A. bombed Great Britain.
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It is perhaps no surprise that when, last month, Tony Blair apologised on behalf of the British people to the Guildford Four, the Daily Mail’s coverage was relentlessly negative and spiteful. The general tone of the coverage in the Mail was that the apology was a betrayal. |
http://www.theirishworld.com/homepa...%5Cnews%5C3.htm
quote:
a statement of our secular, open, democratic, rational, scientific, free and equal values. |
Cort Haus
Like state supported faith based schools teaching creationism in science classes and separate religious educational establishments in Northern Ireland ?
The problems arise when any group advocates violence as a means for effecting political change, immigrant or not.
The suicide bombers inLondon weren't immigrants but second generation, mostly- like me.
quote:
The shoe bomber Richard Reid was brought up in South London. His fellow conspirator Sajid Badat was born in Britain and educated at the prestigious Crypt Grammar School in Gloucester. Ahmed Omar Sheikh, convicted in Pakistan of the murder of the American journalist Daniel Pearl, lived in East London and was educated at the London School of Economics. Asif Hanif and Omar Sharif, the two Britons who carried out a suicide bombing mission in Israel, became friends at university. The most detailed study yet of al- Qaeda supporters shows that the majority are middle-class with good jobs. Most are college-educated, usually in the West. Fewer than one in ten have been to religious school.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...1695604,00.html
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Is it true? |
I think so.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
molly molly molly. 
The fact that your system isn't perfect yet doesn't mean that these stupidities should be accepted as normal and encouraged.
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Don't tell me that- I'm not arguing for them- the state which Cort Haus believes apparently espouses
quote:
secular, open, democratic, rational, scientific, free and equal values. |
is supporting them:
quote:
Mr Blair, said to be the most religious Prime Minister since Gladstone, has backed the millionaire car dealer Sir Peter Vardy in his attempt to take over seven comprehensives and turn them into Christian Academies promoting Old Testament views of the world's creation. This includes the claim that it was made in six days, 10,000 years ago. Two of Sir Peter's schools are open already, in Gateshead and Middlesbrough, and a third is under construction in Doncaster.
Mr Blair, a committed Christian, has presided over an extraordinary growth in the number of faith schools, with 80 new Church of England secondaries now running or in the pipeline. He personally opened King's Academy in Middlesbrough, run by Sir Peter, an Evangelical Christian. When Emmanuel College in Gateshead, the first Vardy school, came under attack for teaching creationism, Mr Blair sent Andrew Adonis, one of his most senior policy advisers, to smooth the issue over.
Nigel McQuoid, principal at King's Academy and director of schools at the newly created Emmanuel Schools Foundation (covering all the Vardy colleges), has said: "Clearly, schools are required to teach evolutionary theory ... Clearly, also, schools should teach the creation theory as literally depicted in Genesis. Ultimately, both creation and evolution are faith positions."
Martin Rogers from the Education Network, an education think-tank, said there was nothing wrong with the principle of academies, and that large investment in struggling schools should be applauded. But the lack of accountability was a big concern. "For a very small sum of money ... you can peddle the most appalling garbage," he said.
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http://atheism.about.com/b/a/092532.htm
and has supported tacitly or otherwise separate sate supported educational establishments in Northern Ireland for the Catholic and Protestant communities.
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Datajack Franit
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Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
Amongst others that all Muslims are not alike; that all Muslim immigrants do not espouse the values of the suicide bombers; that media denigration of immigrants is a constant and despicable element of British culture and political life; that violence can spring from any source, political, secular, sectarian, immigrant or homegrown. |
True, but IF there is the will of exposing this. I hardly call the british, french, dutch-muslim societies able to stand against the brutalities of fundamentalism, let alone stop SUPPORTING it, which is the basics of the problems of muslim society nowadays.
I repeat myself, as Az pointed out I am an immigrant and there are many more in any other country of the world but one thing is becoming part of a society, another is becoming a foreigner in your own country in the moment you are surrounded by persons that have no intention of integrate themselves. European cities are becoming decade after decade ghettos where muslim community re-create their own islamic town, and excuse me but this really pisses me off.
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