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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:37
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quote:
whaleboy, when someone asks you if it's more dangerous to cross a road from where you're standing or at the crossing 20 yards up the road, what do you say to them? do you tell them that you can't compare the two because of the inherent dangers of crossing the road and then proceed to talk about how the road was 500 years ago. or do you give them a simple answer to a simple question.
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Nice attempt to fudge the question (again). I fail to see how determining which religion is more dangerous than another is like crossing a road which is self-evident. The only way to make your argument (that Islam is more dangerous) is to narrow it down to "in the UK", which is debatable, in London, on 7/7, on the number 30 bus etc etc. But then of course, it loses all meaning.
Makes far more sense to distinguish between mainstream peaceful Islam and the percentage of fundamentalist ****** who should be strung up by their testicles with cheesewire. That is common sense. What you are suggesting is stupidity. There's a difference, believe it or not.
quote:
likewise it (should at least...) go without saying that ordinary muslims are different from the muslims who carry out bombings. but they are, at the end of the day, still all muslims and have in common the islamic faith.
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But again, trying to link fundamentalist Islam with mainstream Islam in respect to terrorism would be like linking Ann Frank to Hitler on the grounds that they both breathed oxygen. It is true that fundies and proper Muslims both read the Koran, but if you seek to link the two (in other words tar the latter with the former brush), it's a proposition that has absolutely no meaning, other than ad hominem.
For example, I remember after 7/7, Jon Snow on channel 4 news was interviewing this guy who used to head Al Mujaharoon (sp?), a Jamaican immigrant who converted to Islam. He refused to condemn his fellow Muslims whatever the circumstances, and when confronted by Snow and a moderate Muslim journalist in the studio, he suggested that the latter wasn't an observant Muslim... the logic went like this:
(1) I refuse to denounce any Muslim, regardless of their actions
(2) An observant Muslim would concur with my beliefs
(3) This Muslim (moderate) would act against you and your beliefs
(4) The Muslim (moderate) is therefore not an observant Muslim
You see how he redefined "Muslim" to seek his own purposes. In that regard, he is reducing the concept of "Muslim" to mean "terrorist" or of a certain opinion that he espoused. To do that has no logical value at all, except to cause offense to moderate Muslims. Your logic is parallel to this, but in reverse, since you are attempting to expand the term "fundamentalist", or "terrorist", or "extremist" or whatever to equate to "Muslim".
You would have to show why being a Muslim necessarily and leads to fundamentalism and where Islam prescribes terrorism. I'm sure the majority of peaceful Muslims in this country, and the vast majority of older peaceful Muslims would have something to say about that.
You appeals to simplicity and one-dimensional "fisher price" logic cut absolutely no ice. The points being made against you by myself and others pwn your arguments thus far, if you wish to defend them I suggest you engage with the counters and not run crying to mummy because "daddy's using long words".
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
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The fact that western governments do not always live up to these ideals is no proof of the bankruptcy of the ideals, just failings of governments.
There was a strong call for a politics which asserted these core western values anyway - even without terrorism to focus our minds. Science and Reason have lost much of the respect they deserve, and such examples as creationism are there to be opposed.
Hence the need for debate on what our values are. I hope we in the West can agree that Islamofascism is not compatible with our values, or does Molly disagree? |
The fact that our governments **** up and fail before religionist isn't prove of the failure or hipocricy of the system, but of the fact that it isn't perfect, and we should fight on striving to improve it.
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Amongst others that all Muslims are not alike; that all Muslim immigrants do not espouse the values of the suicide bombers; that media denigration of immigrants is a constant and despicable element of British culture and political life; that violence can spring from any source, political, secular, sectarian, immigrant or homegrown. |
But those muslims aren't the problem. They're not a case for multiculturalism, since they've assimilated into the values of western society. People who are nominally muslim but are western in their values have never bothered those that oppose multiculturalism while hating racism, such as me, Datajack, Cort Haus, and many others ( and our ranks are growing) - It's those who want to live in a bubble, a ghetto of darkness. We have those around here too.
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Bereta_Eder
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The Saudi Arabia has consistently offered to finance all expenses for islamic centers in Greece. I think some stupido finally accepted it but I'm not sure.
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Bereta_Eder
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They'd need governmental approval for it.
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Bereta_Eder
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BTW I judge Datajack's approach about Spain as wrong. Sure the fact that Spain was once under arabs did fuel the homicidal fervor of the bombers but it was a tactical move above anything else.
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Bereta_Eder
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They're not anymore.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
But those muslims aren't the problem. They're not a case for multiculturalism, since they've assimilated into the values of western society. People who are nominally muslim but are western in their values have never bothered those that oppose multiculturalism while hating racism, such as me, Datajack, Cort Haus, and many others ( and our ranks are growing) - It's those who want to live in a bubble, a ghetto of darkness. We have those around here too. |
Clearly they aren't- but what irks me is the 'one size fits all' approach of the current round of hysteria.
Muslim=terrorist=asylum seeker=dole scrounger=refugee=hijab wearer= anyone with a complexion darker than a certain ideal shade.
It's also this notion that 'the West' has certain core values, which apparently only it has, or had. Which to anyone with a passing interest in history seems not merely untrue, but offensive.
Many posts here have simply ignored the many reasons people live in communities where there are others of the same religion, background and ethnicity.
It takes time to assimilate- as it did for the Ashkenazi Jews of the East End of London, or the Huguenots before them, or the Sephardic Jews before them, and so on.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
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quote:
Clearly they aren't- but what irks me is the 'one size fits all' approach of the current round of hysteria.
Muslim=terrorist=asylum seeker=dole scrounger=refugee=hijab wearer= anyone with a complexion darker than a certain ideal shade. |
Then you're arguing a strawman that has nothing to do with this thread. That's not the words of anyone in this. I can't believe you made this mistake, molly.
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It's also this notion that 'the West' has certain core values, which apparently only it has, or had. Which to anyone with a passing interest in history seems not merely untrue, but offensive. |
Not only it has, and not inherently unique, but certainly values that it has, ( not in each and every individual, but as a mean value, a stereotype). And since your words also carry the hidden implication that these ideals and values are positive in their nature, I think that you'll surely agree that they must be protected.
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Many posts here have simply ignored the many reasons people live in communities where there are others of the same religion, background and ethnicity.
It takes time to assimilate- as it did for the Ashkenazi Jews of the East End of London, or the Huguenots before them, or the Sephardic Jews before them, and so on. |
Blech. With modern educational and societal approaches, it takes one generation to assimilate if you're willing to. Otherwise, it indicates a clear desire to remain in a ghetto. Once again, I am a first generation immigrant, and I know the full extent of immigrants' problems and social situations.
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06-08-2005 18:23
but for now a couple of things, including this little gem.
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