22-08-2005 21:35									#121
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Wasnt meant to be harsh... but what i pointed out wasnt rocket science.

	22-08-2005 23:47									#122
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ah, just stumbled over this thread which explains why the one in the ctp2 forum is that quiet

my two cents to a couple of issues:
- king out of hut:
i never encoutered that so far but think of it as a feature rather than a bug. how many tales are there about that young farmerboy who is recognized as the true heir (of course AoM is still missing an "evil-stepmother-unit" )

-Dark Ages:
after a couple of more or less successfull testgames i find them rather too predictable, how about in a future version not starting them by a turntimer but by events the player has less control over, the easiest way would be the turn that someone has researched all classic age techs (and if not playing on very ease you can bet its not you)

and a last one, in one of my testgames i had an almost epic event: a full army including a general stationed in a dull town (iirc i got it from a hut and wanted to disband it soon, just using it as a healing base onway to the front) got surprised attacked by 2 full enemy stacks in one turn, the first was dealt with rather easilly though damaging my units seriously) the second slaughtered almost my entire army with only the general surviving killing the last two enemy slingers barehanded.

i really hoped for some slic that promoted him to a hero, since as sure as he is one of whom generations of my people will tell in their songs he was a real bad general loosing a whole army for some dirty pighole

---
new diplomatics update downloaded.. have to go now

	23-08-2005 00:01									#123
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I've seen some great AoM stories here. hopefully people will post some stories with screenshots back in the ctp2 thread.

	23-08-2005 00:11									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora If the interface was designed for civ2 it would be horrid, but its not, its designed for CtP2, thats brings me to your next point... Did you read the manual for civ3 or smac? If you read the CtP2 manual it would tell you the city works the tile under the city and ALL surrounding tiles, in the case of a new city, 8 surrounding tiles. To be honest, if youve tried CtP2 before and still dont know this, it tells me you gave up pretty quickly. What were you expecting? If you understand how Public Works are produced (from the manual again) it should tell you not to waste so many turns on generating Public Works early in the game, when you have hardly no production base to tax from. I wouldnt be surprised if you built those roads expecting a boost in arrows. Where you managed to turn on the grid through the graphic options menu (it isnt default), from there you had to move the mouse up a little bit into gameplay options and press "auto-center on". It wouldnt have taken you long to find that if you were looking, or were you expecting it to read your mind?

my auto-center was on. Yes I saw it in the options. Unless it got turned off somehow...

	23-08-2005 00:11									#125
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quote: Originally posted by E Maq, No need to be so harsh. but I'm wondering if Dis downloaded the Apolyton playtest version as well. Oh and cant AoM be downloaded from apoliyton still so he can get it that way.

I noticed AOM seems to cost money. What's Apolyton playtest version?

	23-08-2005 00:16									#126
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AOM is free, but you can buy it to get a CD and support the creators. Poly's version per today is the newest I think.

	23-08-2005 00:17									#127
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you can get the AoM here as a download (no cost) but its big:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=134392



The apolyton platest is code that forum people have put together to fix the bugs that activision had when they sold it. Activision released the source code so we are able to make improvements.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...59&pagenumber=1

should probably put the apolyton playtest version first than AoM, as I understod it they are compatible and the AI has improved in the playtest version alone and i better with AoM

	23-08-2005 00:30									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Well, I think I found the solution. 1. Replace the Folder: \AOM5.5.05\AOM5.5.05\ctp2_program\ctp with the ctp-Folder from the german installation. 2. Add any Files from the AoM-ctp-Foolder which aren´t present in the folder from the german installation into this CtP-Folder 3. Rename the Folder "english" at \AOM5.5.05\AOM5.5.0\ctp2_data\ into "german" 4. Replace the line "english" in the modswap.ini which you can find in AOM5.5.05\AOM5.5.05 with "german" and save. This seems to work for me

damn... if i understand that right that means i have to redo all the installing i did last hour? normally the first thing after an install is to make the german version an english by replacing those (dull) german files with the originals

	23-08-2005 01:58									#129
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oh yeah, I didn't read the manual recently, but I did read the manual a few months ago. So yes, I forgot a few things.

one more question. How far does the city radius go (at max population)? Can you see it on the map? Is it like a X radius like civ games?. I'm still not sure how close together to put my cities.

Do you guys go for a compact ICS style? Or go for getting cities to their highest population? or somewhere in between?

	23-08-2005 02:17									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox damn... if i understand that right that means i have to redo all the installing i did last hour? normally the first thing after an install is to make the german version an english by replacing those (dull) german files with the originals

The main Problem with the Folder names is,
that there seems to be some kind of hardcoded link for thje Great Library, which wants a folder named german.
Ifr you replaced its contents with the english files, it doesn´t matter, as long as the folder is still named german.

But for AoM it doesn´t even matter if the folders contain the german or english Textfiles. Using Modswapper, AoM has its own textfiles (all in english of course) which replace the files the game would normally use.

So I would just follow the steps I described, without taking care, if the folders contain the german or english textfiles
IMHO there shouldn´t be any problems.

	23-08-2005 02:29									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Dis oh yeah, I didn't read the manual recently, but I did read the manual a few months ago. So yes, I forgot a few things. one more question. How far does the city radius go (at max population)? Can you see it on the map? Is it like a X radius like civ games?. I'm still not sure how close together to put my cities.

Afaik the max is 4 Tiles awaxy from the city tile (but with only one tile per side in the fourth ring [making it 4 tiles for the fourth ring as a whole])

quote: Originally posted by Dis Do you guys go for a compact ICS style? Or go for getting cities to their highest population? or somewhere in between?

ICS isn´t really recommended for AoM
Resources play an important role for your civilization, so you should better find a balance between area covered by your Civilization-Borders and closeness of cities.
I often decide to put my cities where they cover a lot of resources within their civilization borders. And often I have gaps within my city placement which I fill later, because there are much moire important spots where I can settle at the moment.
After all, there is no great danger of the Ai filling every possible location with its city (as long as you don´t start too close to the starting location of another civ ) as there is a big cap on cities for the initial governments and the AI normally doesn´t build more cities than its current government allowes.

	23-08-2005 02:30									#132
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yeah, seems to work, though its quite irritating as its done the other way in all other mods

	23-08-2005 02:44									#133
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the max citywith in ctp2 is 4, this means 4 fields orthogonally and 3 diagonally can be worked, this equals the national borders your cities extent, well at least before other civs begin cramming their cities at your borders and you expand your borders by watchtowers, fortresses, naval bases, ...

ics is definitely not a way to go neither in unmodded nor in any mod i know ctp since you have a maximum number of cities you can rule effectively. if you surpass that number (govt dependant) severy unhappiness begins to kick in and at some times if that gets worse you aren't able to hold keep of your border towns (be they conquered or founded by you) because of revolts. an interesting sidenote if this is, that other as in civ3 revolting cities don't merge with another empire but rather found new civs (if you set maxplayer>startingplayers in the userprofile.txt, this is default with aom) this can be frustrating or (at least in vanilla ctp) exploited to create small nations around you. the same way other nations can split (sometimes you can help a little with some unconventional warfare at their bordertowns ) and i even saw barbarian cities revolt and call themselves USA hmm.. maybe i got a bit offtopic..

the cityspacing.. well.... hmm.... i'm gonna play now with the new diplomod and edit in some advise later

	23-08-2005 02:52									#134
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The latest AOM update with diplomacy changes has been available from Apolyton for nearly 2 weeks.

	23-08-2005 02:54									#135
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Dis, do not worry about small holes in your territory early on, because a border WILL NOT CHANGE if an opposing city is placed near (or even adjacent) to it. OTOH, the HUNS can appear in an unclaimed space as small as ONE tile -- just happened to me a couple days ago.

The Huns totally faked me out. I was all prepared for them to appear in unclaimed land nearest my capital, so of course they show up on my weak flank, farther away. It's their tunneling under the other civs to get there that upset me.

	23-08-2005 05:26									#136
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For what it's worth, I plan to have a full review of AOM posted by the end of the week (with screen shots), etc. I'll hit such topics as ICS, diplomacy, and the rest.

Of course, the best thing to do is just to play it yourself!

EDIT: Well, even if I'm not sure about a full review (getting tired), I think my last post sums most of my thoughts: http://www.interwebgames.com.au/aom...php?p=1103#1103 I do want to highlight my earlier enthusiasm in the early part of the thread. There is some serious promise in AOM...it just needs to be prodded further along in my opinion.

And just to make clear: There are elements of AOM that I think should be in Civ 4 (even if it takes modding, which it likely will). So for my money, most any Civver will likely find a few serious days with AOM to be highly educational and potentially important when thinking about Civ 4 mods months from now.

Last edited by yin26 on 23-08-2005 at 07:47

	24-08-2005 06:32									#137
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O.K. I guess I've unsettled the natives over there, but at least we might finally get some real discussion about the game's potential for improvement. I think the last round waged against me is revealing a lot about the game's design and who might enjoy AOM. I'm sure there are those here who would love what it has to offer, but that link might also save you a lot of time if you don't fit a certain gaming profile.

	24-08-2005 13:54									#138
	Hun Island Got spare money?

Now I´m through the dark ages.

I always wondered why I never encountered Attila and his Tarkans.
Well, one of my Ships found out why, patrolling along the shores of a small Island just outside of my nations borders.

I´ve christened it Hun Island

Attachment: hun_island.jpg
This has been downloaded 85 time(s).

	24-08-2005 16:20									#139
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That's hilarious!

	24-08-2005 16:55									#140
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Some would say, a stroke of good luck.

I do however, recommend playing on mainly land and continents as outlined in the readme and strategy guide.

	24-08-2005 19:54									#141
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quote: Originally posted by stankarp Some would say, a stroke of good luck. I do however, recommend playing on mainly land and continents as outlined in the readme and strategy guide.

To be honest,
I ´m more the peaceful type, just like hexagonian.

Therefore I like settings like the one shown, with separate continents (in this game 2 large continents and some small islands) and some kind of ocean,
where myself and the AIs are not able to establish contact to all of the other Civilizations from early times on, but have to wait until our seafaring capabilities are developed enough.
It also gives your navy an importance it wouldn´t have with the settings you recommend (I started some other games before, just to get used to AoM and as one would expect, there were no oceans which would reward someone who invests resources in shipbuilding).

If it sometimes leads to results like shown, well let it be so

It really seems to be some kind of lucky game for me, aside from the appearance of Hun Island, all barbarian leaders I eleminated before the dark ages seem to have respawned near other civilizations and gave them a hard time during the dark ages (currently the barbarians seem to own 5 cities, 3 conquered from the english, one from the native Americans and one founded by themselves).

btw.
If you still work on expanding the game,
what do you think about expanding the units from industrial and modern times?
For example including more stages of evolution for the tanks (after all there were at least three stages of Evolution, from the early WW1-Tanks like the Mk IV or the A7V, to the Tanks of WW2, like Sherman or Tiger to modern computerized tanks like the Leopard 2 or the Abrams, which each stage of development being able to destroy tanks of a lower stage with ease)

	24-08-2005 20:30									#142
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well i don't mind those barbs on an island, its a reward for the task to have your whole continent inside your own borders which can be very hard. to be honest in the times before the dark ages i spent most of my empires resources on that task by building watch towers, watch towers and... well watch towers.

	24-08-2005 21:20									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox well i don't mind those barbs on an island, its a reward for the task to have your whole continent inside your own borders which can be very hard. to be honest in the times before the dark ages i spent most of my empires resources on that task by building watch towers, watch towers and... well watch towers.

Yep, same for me.
As soon as I discovered the Aztecs north from my empire,
I began building a chain of Borderforts at the narrowest part of the continent between my civ and the Aztecs, so that I have a border between me and the aztecs.
They often moved stacks into the border after it was conplete, but if I paid them a certain amount (200-100 Gold) they left again the next turn
(now I am at war with them nevertheless, because they attacked an innocent scout which moved along outside of my borders, but as at this time my border was fortified with several 12-Stacks (in Expectation of Atilla who never would come ) it was futile and cost them lots of units (and now I´m on my way to counterattack )

	25-08-2005 02:49									#144
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I have thought about expanding the modern era but I am mindful of how much time it would take and the fact civ 4 is almost here.

I am a realist, AOM was 6 months later than I planned due to slic problems and to do a modern expansion would run into the time civ 4 is here and I doubt there will be much interest after that.

	25-08-2005 04:16									#145
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quote: Originally posted by stankarp ... I doubt there will be much interest after (Civ4 is released).

Perhaps not short term, but if victory conditions are diversified to cater not only to the warmongers, it could turn into a real sleeper.

... or not, if Civ4 realizes its promises (e.g., easy modability).

	25-08-2005 10:50									#146
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Jep,
after all CtP2 has, thanks to extensive modders like you,
survived much later games like Civ 3 and all its extension packs,
so, like jaybe said, the real question is, if Civ IV can keep the promises its creators make (especially concerning modability).

If it doesn´t people could turn back to CtP2: AoM very fast again

	26-08-2005 23:35									#147
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One thing I find unsettling in AoM is the diplomacy. The ai are busy fighting one another when it would really make some sense to ally with a'ny) neighbour in order to fight the other four. I know the CtP2 ai needs to be told to attakc at least 20 times before it does move one stack of 12, but it looks like they are sending their stacks in every direction when they could concentrate on one or two opponents, and ally together to at least keep one border safe.

	27-08-2005 02:40									#148
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quote: One thing I find unsettling in AoM is the diplomacy.

Unfortunately, diplomacy in ctp2 was always the weakest link. And AI to AI diplomacy is even harder to code.

On the other side, if the AI did not fight each other and only half of them concentrated on the human to some degree, the human could never win.

	27-08-2005 02:42									#149
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couldn't they be more peaceful?

yes I will start a game of aom soon. But I'm curiuos how much warfare goes on in this game. I hate overly aggressive ai's. You'd think they'd want peace every now and then.

	27-08-2005 02:58									#150
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The diplomacy update makes the ai much more reasonable to deal with. Passive AI, if you give them gifts IMMEDIATELY on meeting, will virtually always agree to a withdraw agreement then a peace treaty, and very rarely will break it.

The other 2 personality types are a problem. The middle level ones can usually be bribed into being friendly, so they are not to great a problem.

However, the aggressive ones usually only agree to a withdraw agrement/treaty if you are much stronger than them. Until you get to 30-40 cities, they cannot be trusted.

Yin played a game of diplo update and was lucky in that he had no aggressive ai near him initially, was able to build a totally peacefull empire for 450 turns without attacking anyone and only minor attacks against him. Once he got big in size, and also after a time, the ai agree to cease fires and treaties so he continued on his building way. But this boring, so we have began playtesting a small variation to change scoring slightly, and introduce more ways the human aggression counter can go up and down.

If you don't like war much, the current diplo update should suit you as you can keep out of ai way and build up until you are strong enough to pressure them.