13-08-2005 07:56									#91
	Put an end to popups!

"Wait and see" is always a good way to go, imho. I agree with nye. We should try to avoid judging CBR on basis of their prior attitude in regard to CFC. People an leadership change on teams.

That said, let's accept the invitation to the chat (though see if we can't switch it to IRC if they're comfortable with it). We'd best approach it with honesty and sincere kindness, I think, and see how they respond.

	13-08-2005 08:00									#92
	Remove this text

Well first of all I hate to make decision with lack of evidence and well, one diplomatic note is hardly enough to make an adecuate profile of the team. What I will say is this:

- Above all things they are our neighbors. This means that eventually we will have to fight them. That is the only given at this moment. However, logic dictates that this happen after we are able to get as much from them as possible, and before they are able to become (either them alone or allied with others) a threat to us.

- We are a team to beat. That is a fact. Everyone wants to take out Apolyton the largest civ site and who's civ-abilities are well known. This means that everyone will be pre-disposed to see us as a rival than as an ally, at least initially.

- Our main concern in the ancient era is territorial stability. We need to stake out as big and as valuable a territory as possible. Problems will arise when another civ attempts to shut us down from exploration and fair expansion, what I call the Roleplayian attitude: "we have the right to explore but you don't. We will not stand for that which is why the first key to our policy at this moment with CBR is: avoid getting embroiled in borders and territorial discussions until we have defined where we want to expand. The only exception to this is an agreement whereby our mutual units refrain from moving inside a 1-tile buffer zone around our mutual borders. But free exploration should be a given and any attempt to prevent this should be seen as a sign of bad faith.

- We must always have CBR's record in Round 1 in mind. This does not mean that we have to judge them on the basis of Round 1 since this is another, merely that their behavior must be analyzed under the context of their actions in the first game. Who knows, they might end up being a worthy ally for the time being. But they can also end up being our first enemy. Only time will tell.

- I am against an early war for the simple reason that I don't want to squander our early GA. I think we should consider war only as early as when we get our first government tech. I doubt CBR will want to fight a civ with Enkidus since the prospect is their untimely sacrifice. I am actually quite glad we choosed Sumeria as it offers us a good window of peace early on when it is most vital. Still I think we should have a regular-to-strong offensive military even at this early stage. Perhaps build 1 or 2 military camp cities? They have worked wonders for me in practically every game. I do not know if this is contemplated in our econ. plans.

That's about all I have to say, please comment.

-MZ

Oh and yes, I want that chat too.

	13-08-2005 08:07									#93
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel This team looks like the perfect pawn to play against a third civ.

Could be... They have a reputation of cheating and they are a smart group, AFAIK. They seem to have some fragility, some psychological weaknesses... That episode involving my e-mail and how they got it, shows some "bragging bad habit", which we can use in our favor... We can play pawns, but carefully.
Btw, I’m pretty sure they will remember that.

	13-08-2005 08:13									#94
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Brillant, Master Zen. Excellent analysis.

	13-08-2005 08:14									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen - snipped for brevity. That's about all I have to say, please comment. -MZ Oh and yes, I want that chat too.

Very good, MZ. I agree entirely.

Please proceed with Aro to arrange the chat.

	13-08-2005 08:24									#96
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I am available for chat pretty much every afternoon/night and on weekends at least for the rest of this month. Thus, if Aro wishes to arrange the chat based on his schedule, he can be my guest.

	13-08-2005 08:46									#97
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OK. Can you help Aro with suggestions for a message to be sent to them?

	13-08-2005 08:54									#98
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Possible Chat topics:

- meet & greet

- 1 tile buffer zone from borders.

- Technology trading
-> We have BW (base of 90 beakers, but they are now at 81 beakers).
--> They have Alphabet (base of 150 beakers, but it now would cost us 135 Beakers).
--> They have CB (base of 60 beakers, but it would now cost us 54 beakers).
Did they get this from a Hut or in trade with CGN (Celts) or BAT(India) or maybe someone else?? It's very possible that they researched this and completed it very shortly before making contact, but not very likely.
--->We are researching IW (base of 180 beakers, but would cost them 162 beakers, once we have it).
---->They can be researching one of the following:
Writing - 240 beakers - would be doing this, if going for Philosophy.
Mysticism - 120 beakers - not too likely.
The Wheel - 120 beakers - possible.
Masonry - 120 beakers - not likely, but more so, if they want to go for SoZ, with Mathamatics
Warrior Code - 90 beakers - possible, if wanting to have an early archer rush.
Bronze Working - 90 beakers - Very Possible, for building defenses and getting IW. If they started on this tech from turn 1, they are just about to finish it, which would really reduce what we have to trade to them.

It's not certain that we want to trade IW to them, as soon as we get it, but that is up to the team. Also, do we want no retrade or time limited retrade on the techs?

- Too early to discuss borders, as we both need to see what is out there, but want to keep that topic open.


And always, watch what you say, especially when just chatting about things not related to the game. Be mindful of Human Intel gathering, from them and to them.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 13-08-2005 at 09:04

	13-08-2005 09:13									#99
	Put an end to popups!

I'll be available next Monday night (15/august) or Thursday night (18).

I never used MSN… It seems I’ll have to change my habits…
Master Zen, at your service Sir…
And I would love to go to this chat with all that stuff already discussed and planned. What we'll trade, what we'll not... Btw, we should start right now. I'd prefer not to improvise.

	13-08-2005 09:17									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Anyway, we always can buy some time by saying "hmmm... I'll have to consult my government. I'll talk to you next Monday, same bat time, same bat irc channel".

	13-08-2005 09:45									#101
	Got spare money?

If enough of us use IRC we can make the chat there. Most of the other teams probably use IRC also so it'd be time that CBR join the bandwagon.

Aro, feel free to contact them to discuss chat time, this would also serve for you guys to get in touch. I am available on both those nights anyway.

We can also take this time to start planning on chat topics. Those who know me know that I always enjoy improvising every chat but let's plan this one beforehand with care.

-MZ

	13-08-2005 10:33									#102
	Tired of ads?

Does Aro know where to contact them?

Aro, are you comfortable initiating contact? If you wish, you could post a proposed message. Some of us could make suggestions, and then you could send it off.

	13-08-2005 13:47									#103
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

MSN or mIRC is fine with me. I would love to attend (don't worry, I won't say a word).

	13-08-2005 15:52									#104
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

depending of the time I may join too. But don't count on me, I'm just analysis guy, not diplomat

	13-08-2005 16:35									#105
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Does Aro know where to contact them? Aro, are you comfortable initiating contact? If you wish, you could post a proposed message. Some of us could make suggestions, and then you could send it off.

Can do, but is very important notice that this is my first time in MP games (except by two months in GoW... ), and I really don't know what I should say... or do.

I just need his official e-mail (and the suggestions you promised, of course )
How much time do I have, before send the message?

	13-08-2005 21:31									#106
	Got spare money?

So... What should I say to CBR Team in acceptance of their proposal? I mean, I need a "model"...

Something like:

quote: Greetings! The brave people of Apolyton accepts with great pleasure your nice invitation to attend a chat in next week, and we would like to suggest (put date and time here). Is this date suitable for you? Aro

In Portuguese:

quote: Saudaçőes! O valoroso povo de Apolyton aceita com grande prazer seu gentil convite para um chat na próxima semana, e gostaríamos de sugerir (put date and time here). Esta data é adequada para vocęs?

And please, correct and rephrase my english in the text above, some folks over there speak excellent english... And I do not.

	13-08-2005 23:13									#107
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

jdd@civbrasil.com
is where they wanted our reply to go to.

For MSN:

quote: The msn list Pggar - President pggar@hotmail.com Krasan - Vice President tdyna10@hotmail Wosret - Minister of Foreign Affairs rrb3l@hotmail.com

Let me think on the message for a bit.

	13-08-2005 23:40									#108
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Try changing "brave" for something less... chest-thumping.

	14-08-2005 00:15									#109
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ok. What do you suggest?

	14-08-2005 00:17									#110
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

As a matter of fact, you both should wright the message, and I can translate (so we could send a bilingual message)

	14-08-2005 00:52									#111
	Increase Your PM Length

try:

quote: The noble people of Apolyton accept with great pleasure your nice invitation to attend a chat next week, and we would like to suggest (put date and time here). Is this date suitable for you?

	14-08-2005 03:26									#112
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Perferct. When? Monday night or Thursday night?
It's up to you, folks.

	14-08-2005 03:45									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As soon as we have a date, I'll email them.

	14-08-2005 04:18									#114
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Tuesday, Aro. We don't want to waste more time.

MZ says he is available any afternoon or evening. Make the time late aft-early evening, but suit yourself for the specific time. Maybe ask them what suits them for time.

	14-08-2005 04:21									#115
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Tuesday is very difficult to me, I would prefer Monday. It could be?

	14-08-2005 04:27									#116
	Inflate your Upload Space

But don't let this be an obstacle, I'm not important at this chat. If Master Zen and you can do it next tuesday, do it!
So... may I send the message propposing Monday night, at Apolyton Time 19:00... ? Please, suggest a time.

	14-08-2005 04:32									#117
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Monday it is. I only said Tues because I goofed and thought that is what you said (when I could have glanced up and seen that you said Monday).

	14-08-2005 05:39									#118
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Ok, Monday 19:00 (Apolyton time). Ok?

	14-08-2005 08:12									#119
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I think 19.00 would be fine.

You might want to use a common time zone for Brazil though.

	14-08-2005 08:18									#120
	Inflate your Upload Space

I stay up until like 3am these days so time is of no concern for me...