12-08-2005 04:41									#1
	24 hour play time - to be, or not to be? that is the question! Got spare money?

Hello,

There is concern on the 24 hour rule being often ignored. A simple idea to stop the game bogging down. In principle it is:

Play the save within 24 hours of receiving it.
Or post in the "save game thread" the reason for the delay and when save will be played.
Just ignoring everyone is not acceptable.
All teams agreed to this.

I have just had a chat with OPD on this matter.

He has reservations on playing / skipping the save at the 24 hour mark. He feels too many times we have all gone past the 24 hour mark. Thus why he decided on 48 hours.

As to all teams going past the 24 hour mark, well nearly every time each team has clearly posted in the save game thread. We are all playing to win, a great deal of grace has been shown to all teams, especially when a simple post takes little to no effort. It is no use having this simple process ignored time and again. Especially when there are active members of offending teams seen posting, and even playing in other games, within the Apolyton.

I personally would not like to be skipped, and I am sure all of you feel that way. Yet we have some clear guidelines in this game. Guidelines to assist in keeping this game from bogging down.

I have started this thread so that we have somewhere that we can all place our views, calmly and clearly. All teams have agreed to the 24 hour rule. And the admins need to know that we all want this stuck to, or that we all agree on a new process etc.

A simple post in the save game thread would help matters for all other game members. This is not a pbem with 6 players. There are over 30 people involved in this game on a very regular basis. Adding in there are team member lurkers, and even lurkers on the public threads. If the turn player is too busy to post a reason for the delay and when the save will be played, then that team has a responsibility to all other game members, in having someone else post such information.

Anyway, we also need to start looking for a temporary replacement admin, or motivating another of our current admins. OPD is off for a holiday soon, and may extend that into a long vacation. FYI.

Cheers

Paddy



edit: colour changed.

Attachment: paddy's paradise.jpg
This has been downloaded 83 time(s).

Last edited by Paddy the Scot on 12-08-2005 at 05:04

	12-08-2005 06:43									#2
	Remove this text

I think this issue has been abundantly discussed in the setup thread and here
24 hour rule(Apr)
and here
speed of turns(Feb)
and here
first turns fast(Feb)
and here
turn limits(Jan)
and here
speed up the game(Jan)

'nuff said, time to start skipping turns.

I think there should be no exceptions. If you can't play your turn on time there are nearly 65,000 replacment players here. I have never had anyone refuse me this simple favor.

Last edited by 1889 on 12-08-2005 at 06:48

	12-08-2005 06:50									#3
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Well that list of links clearly does show that 24 HOURS is the agreed limit

The Horde agree it should remain at 24 hours.

	12-08-2005 08:00									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

See my post in save game discussio thread.

One of our problems has been the time when save is received.

1125BC save - 12:14 AM EDT
1150BC save - 12:23 AM EDT
1175BC save - 3:22 AM EDT
1200BC save - 7:39 AM EDT
1225BC save - 1:26 AM EDT

I have played the 1200BC and later saves. I work from 11 AM to AT LEAST 9:30PM, with the latest that I've worked has been 12:30AM (13 hour day that one). The earliest that I get home is around 10PM EDT. So, just from receipt to the first time that I can play it is almost 24 hours right there.

As I have to take screenshots and make reports, I have to fully reboot and bring all of the required programs up, in a vary particular manner, waiting for things to stableize before bringing up the next part, or I have either a system crash or the game crash (which both require a new reboot). This takes, around 15 minutes, if not more (with additional reboots).

Then I have to play our turn, and with no input, have to figure out what is needed to be done. Than make the screenshots and make the report. Then post all of it. Then make sure that nothing is forgotten and save and send off the e-mails.

So, I have somewhere around 3 hours (on average) in which all of this is going on. And I'm not going to start playing at that late.

And I can't start playing, and leave it half way thought, because of where I live. Central Florida has afternoon and early evening Thunderstorms, daily. With power losses and lightning spikes, there has been many a time that I come home and found that my computer had rebooted, due to a brief power loss (and my allarm clock also needing to be reset). So, I don't play the save 1/2 way through and leave it for later. It's all or nothing.

Frankly, I didn't really want to do this (see above for part of the rational), but for now, until Kloreep gets his butt back into gear, you've got me. No one else in our team has stepped forward, to play our save.

So, please bare with me. I don't want to sit on this any more than you want to hear all of this.

E_T

	12-08-2005 08:07									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

so of the 15 members (14 as Beta is away for another day or two) you are the only one who can play the save then?

edit: to meet the responsibilities that your team agreed to, your team may need to consider a new turn player or adopting a different approach to how you play the turn.

you also mention the time the turn is recieved. just about every time I play, I send you a heads up email 30 - 45 minutes in advance. I time manage when I play the saves, working in with many of the 16 Horde members, and also cordinating with the team before us on when we would recieve the save.

never once have you come back to me in response to my emails, stating any issues

so I am a little sceptical of your point on when you recieve the save. afterall you are posting elsewhere throughout these times.

Last edited by Paddy the Scot on 12-08-2005 at 08:13

	12-08-2005 08:14									#6
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Kloreep has been our turnplayer, until recently. First he had problems, then was away for a while, now he (and several others) don't even want to even look at the save, little alone play it.

* E_T mumbles that it's something to do with a certain betrayal or something like that.....

And out of the 12 (not including Beta, Kloreep & me) other players, most lurk, with occasional activity. And until the last several days, have been away with RL things.

So, At least, you've got me to play this, because most likely, you would be skiping us the last several turns.

E_T

	12-08-2005 08:22									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

oh, so no one but you will play the save? that is most sad

as to skipping you the last few turns, probably not. if you had been here a little more than 20 minutes you would know some history, that many of the teams have had grace periods.

these grace periods have been brought on through that teams communications with the other teams of the situations in advance. not each turn after the fact

I really do have a hard time believing no one of your 12 remaining players will play, many are active elsewhere...

	12-08-2005 08:52									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

After some discussion within the Horde, we would like to state the following:

The Blood Oath Horde, we have 16 members, which makes us at this time the largest team in this game. Our members are scattered across the globe covering a great many time zones. We recieve the save at various hours of the day, and have a very good turn rate. At one stage stats were kept on this matter, and we stood a very quick rate at that time.

Babylon has nearly as many members.

We know Lost Boys have many members listed, yet these are false numbers due to the double membership some players now have ( not sure the the Horde have yet agreed with that idea )

We the Horde feel that this issue needs to be dealt with, We feel that you, E_T, need to realize that your team is not that only ones affected by his delays.

The Horde would like you to consider that if you can't play, then abandon your cities and let the people that want to play this game move on.

Boring us to death with such a slow turn rate will not do.

We truely wonder how many of those players that "Can't bear to look at the save" would scream and yell if the cities were abandoned.

E_T you make big statements in these threads, you should be careful.

	12-08-2005 10:22									#9
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Was going to post this in the saved game thread, but discussion seems to have moved here...

I'm somewhat busy in RL, E_T is clearly very much so. I'm sorry that makes our turns so slow, but we can't always make it work out. If that's too big a problem, I'm afraid I don't see an alternative to skipping either at the moment.

quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot have another of your numerous team members play it then other teams have such plans in place.

Okay, cool. Perhaps you can take a crack at getting someone to be a third turnplayer for Babylon, because I haven't been able to. I post I'm leaving in August quite a while ago, and still no one steps up. E_T has been the first new person to start turnplaying, and only after I left because, yes, I just couldn't play this game anymore for a while. Perhaps Beta will be able to help when he comes back from vacation, but all I can tell you is I'm leaving, and E_T really should be too with all that's on his plate... so, I'm not sure where that leaves us.

quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot oh, so no one but you will play the save? that is most sad

I've come back for a little while, but I'm about to drop out again in 24 hours or so and won't be a reliable turnplayer again for at least a couple weeks, perhaps not till December. So yeah, looks like...

quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot I really do have a hard time believing no one of your 12 remaining players will play, many are active elsewhere...

Sorry, I'm not sure how I can help you reconcile your beliefs and reality.

Your many members are all ready to play? Great for you. I wish Babylon was in such a position. We have a lot of active members, yes, but only the few willing to play turns.

	12-08-2005 10:39									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Kloreep, thank you for this information.

So Skrobism, Joncnunn, Gamecube64, Planet, Scaeva, even Con, none of these people are willing to play the save. That certainly is a shame. Especially as they are posting in various places, and some playing in pbems.

Be well and enjoy your break.

	12-08-2005 10:47									#11
	Got spare money?

E_T, just an advice - don't make reports. Or, at least, make them brief.

If there are possible lurkers why should you try reporting all details? I could not. Just play the turn, post few sentences about the major things you have done and pass it away. If questions arise you could answer them.

	12-08-2005 10:51									#12
	Support Apolyton

With so many great players on the Babylon team, i don't understand the issue ith finding someone to play a turn here or there. If you are the turn player and know you will be absent for more than 24 hrs, then why wouldn't a teammate help you out by playing one turn? especially when the players you have are so active in other parts of the community.

I guess I need my beliefs reconciled too

	12-08-2005 11:28									#13
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The Desolation Row would like to state as a protest, that we will most definitely NOT be playing the turn until Babylon do

	12-08-2005 11:48									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 The Desolation Row would like to state as a protest, that we will most definitely NOT be playing the turn until Babylon do

so to clarify, you are happy that a team can push through the agreed 24 hour time with no notification?

and does your post mean that you will not play a turn that has been skipped by the admins?

	12-08-2005 12:07									#15
	Remove this text

Chiming in here myself.

Everyone knows im a member of the horde, but i want to make it clear that my opinion stated here is just that, my opinion. Im not following any team line as it were.

This situation is out of control, this game is grounding on the rocks quite badly and those teams with the greatest issues here need to sort out their acts if this game is not to die !!

I agree with what paddy has said here, and surely a 12 strong team can find and nominate a turn player or at least post asking for a grace period.

I was stunned to find on my return here from my holidays that only 2 turns had been worked through, and still the speed slows taking us into the realms of a turn every week and a bit !!

I have issues myself sometimes in RL and find it hard to do my PBEM saves but this is a team game and as teams it is possible to forward plan and control schedules !

Of course every teams schedules go up in smoke when certain cogs keep jamming !

	12-08-2005 12:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot so to clarify, you are happy that a team can push through the agreed 24 hour time with no notification? and does your post mean that you will not play a turn that has been skipped by the admins?

No, my post means that we will not play our turn until Babylon (or a mod) has played theirs, because WE ARE AFTER THEM! Doh Paddy!

	12-08-2005 12:33									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 No, my post means that we will not play our turn until Babylon (or a mod) has played theirs, because WE ARE AFTER THEM! Doh Paddy!

former blonde male in action

	13-08-2005 06:57									#18
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A few points:

1st - I know that we agreed on 24 hours, but 48 seems fair for a grace period. I think that much of the delay can also be attributed to all the backstabbing in this game. Setting up chats, responding to diplo emails, writing treaties all takes time. When it is for not, people are less willing to take that time to do it again, and frankly are gun shy about entering into any other deals. I don't think I speak just about myself, or Babylon.

2nd - The members of Babylon that left d/t whatever real life issue (work or play) made that well known ahead of time. I even started a thread about it to give the other teams a heads up.

3rd - E_T and Kloreep, Why would you vent out here? I have not heard any complaints about others' lack of effort 'til now. I'd don't consider myself a lurker. I might not be willing or ABLE to draw up spreadsheets detailing all the possible worker and science scenerios, but I am pretty sure that I have been involved. I know that I offered to play a turn if needed. When all seemed lost I know that I offered to fly this plane into the ground.

jeez!

	14-08-2005 23:57									#19
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Like I said to pts, although the rule is 24 hours, this has been passed so many times that it would be unfair to play a teams save for going over this timelimit now.

Also I leave for Shanghai on Friday for 3 weeks and won't be able to play any civ. But I don't really do anything here anyway so just keep on going playing as fast as you can, perhaps taking things a bit more lightheartedly.

If any team really play slow or drops out completely then either get someone to replace them or drop the team from the game

	15-08-2005 00:00									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Cheers OPD

Thank you for all your efforts. Hopefully we will not have melted Apolyton with any more flame wars by the time you return

	16-08-2005 06:36									#21
	Remove this text

I am back from vacation. We will adhere to the 24 hour rule.

Last edited by Beta on 16-08-2005 at 06:48

	19-08-2005 03:00									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot Kloreep, thank you for this information. So Skrobism, Joncnunn, Gamecube64, Planet, Scaeva, even Con, none of these people are willing to play the save. That certainly is a shame. Especially as they are posting in various places, and some playing in pbems. Be well and enjoy your break.

This was my post asking for membership in Team Babylon:

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 I am offcially requesting membership in Team Babylon, stirctly as a lurker and my official position shall be Team Curmudgeon.............

Note the Strictly as a lurker. Currently my real life situation dictates that I can't let what little free time I have left at home be ruled by needing to play a save within 24 hours.

Thats why I dropped out of the PBEM world last January. I just couldn't do it any longer.

So please dont bring me up as a turn player. I joined this demo game to lurk. I agree the turns should move quicker and we should abide by rules. However I was very clear up front that I was strictly a lurker.

Now with that being said Im waiting for a final offer on a new job, that I hope is going to be better. But that hasn't happened yet and Im stuck in the same place dealing with the same bullshit Ive been dealing with for the past 6 months to a year.

Until then I cant play, simple as that. Its not a matter of willing, its a matter if I did it, it probably would even be slower than E_T doing it with his shcedule.

	19-08-2005 06:00									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Im stuck in the same place dealing with the same bullshit Ive been dealing with for the past 6 months to a year.

Know the feeling. One of my best moments ever is when I finally got out of that job, and when handing in my "Dear Jane" letter to HR, my Boss asked me "Is there anything we can do to Keep you?"

"Not unless you can give me an 8 grand pay rise, private medical care, a pension and a job with some respect, no." was my reply.

I think the largest team is perhaps not aware of the problems the time limit can cause smaller teams. That said, these teams need to realise that that was the rule we agreed, and that's the rule that applies. Adapt you team's structure, or suffer the skips. it's sad but it's true.

What I do not want to see is oneteam trying to take advantage of this rule by trying to enforce a skip on another team, when they may have good reasons to be slow, as I believe Babylon recently had.

We should be strict on skipping, but also take into account times when a team may post that they will be *a littlle* late in playing. more than 4-5 hours would be pushing it IMO.. It is a game, and it's more fun if the players play it, not the mods.