16-08-2005 01:00									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Religion will always be the result of a loophole in human psychology resulting in brainwashing, especially of the naive. I hold no emotional attachment to any of these theories, I have just seen so much evidence for evolution that there is no argument any more. You may as well argue about the Earth being flat.

PH, what do you attribute my belief in (a) God to then?

	16-08-2005 01:16									#272
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So, when are you gonna become a commie so you can completely rule, Kuci?

Az was wrong. I need an army too

	16-08-2005 01:18									#273
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The CPA is ready and waiting.

	16-08-2005 01:23									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's like me saying that people who like the color blue are more intelligent because I like the color blue. That aint intelligent. It's plain stupid youngling.

1. The fact that you used the world "youngling" puts what you said earlier into stark relief.

2. The fact that you do not believe there is any evidence supporting evolution is tragic, and makes me want some of the **** you're smoking.

	16-08-2005 01:23									#275
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Kuci can join the Army of Youth, and take over this country from the evil adults.

	16-08-2005 01:28									#276
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I can't remember the exact circumstances of this, but...

Kid is a Communist. He might also be a Stalinist. After all, Stalinist thought held that biological darwinism and mendelian genetics were suspect.

Something which crippled their understanding of modern medicine.

	16-08-2005 01:34									#277
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No, Kid isn't a Stalinist. If I had to label him, I'd say he was closest to the council communists, kinda of a anarcho-communist group, at least philosophically.

	16-08-2005 01:34									#278
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I'm just saying, he might be borrowing from Stalinist thought. He was, after all, against Mendelian Genetics and Biological Darwinism, much as how Kid seems to be.

	16-08-2005 02:08									#279
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No, Kid seems to be taking a more post-modernist approach here, saying that at some point or another, we take something at faith for the begining of our belief systems. I take it as a matter of faith that my senses reliably send data to me. I do so because I'm able to predict the results of my actions, reasonably well. In cases where I fail, it's generally due to a misinterpretation of the data or because I my reasoning was faulty. And it's reproducable.

But! I could be a brain in a jar ala The Matrix, with inputs being fed into me. I take it on faith that I actually exist in a physical world, though if it weren't. I'd still be forced to act as though it were real, and thus for all practical purposes, it would be real.

Now, as far as evolution goes, the only reasonable interpretation that fist the existing data is the Theory of Evolution. I take it as a given that this explanation is an accurate description of the rise of life and other things. The data's not complete, and new evidence could appear that completely destroys our notion of how life arose (for example, God reveals itself to us and tells us it planted false evidence-though I put this rather low on the list of probability).

Given that's the case, it means we take it on faith that our conception of how life arose and took the shapes it has, if our concept of faith is that it means believing something without complete certainty. If we describe faith as belief in the absence of evidence, which is how most of us describe it, then no, we do not take the ToE on faith, for there is overwhelming evidence that this is the way things happened.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 16-08-2005 at 02:15

	16-08-2005 02:57									#280
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I'll admit that I didn't really read all of his posts, nor most of the thread. It is, after all, tl, which leads to dr.

On the other hand, what I have read, doesn't reflect well on Kid. While personally, I tend to lean on the side of there being two faiths, one in science, the other in religion, and while I personally lean more towards science (religion tends to get in the way of technological evolution and progress, whereas science does not), I'm amazed that anybody could think that there's no evidence supporting the theory of evolution.

	16-08-2005 03:25									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious

am I the only one who has noticed that his first post appears to be validated by the rest of the thread?

JM

	16-08-2005 05:15									#282
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Kid - I'll post later. I just saw a doctor - some moles had to come off - and am going to sleep. I'm not ignoring your last point, I'll get to that tonight. Thanks for listening to the post, mostly. I'll show you more data on that to convince you later.

Ok

	16-08-2005 05:17									#283
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kid isn't a Stalinist.

	16-08-2005 05:25									#284
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That leaves creation as the only possible alternative to evolution. There is no evidence to show creation, whether by extra-terrastrial beings or divine ones.

I believe in creation. I know there is no evidence.

quote: And please describe what you mean by spiritual.

Belief in things that can't be verified like God. I'm a spiritual person. That's why I'll believe that until there is proof otherwise.

quote: Also, I would note that one of the cornerstones of Marxist theory is the Theory of Evolution.

Why do you say it's a cornerstone?

	16-08-2005 05:26									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed I'm amazed that anybody could think that there's no evidence supporting the theory of evolution.

There's evidence that it's a possibility, but I don't see any that it did actually happen.

	16-08-2005 05:46									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious There's evidence that it's a possibility, but I don't see any that it did actually happen.

And when have you actually looked? And where have you looked? And do you hasve the background to know what you are looking for?

I must confer with the general opinion that your arguements against evolution make less sense than those who at least have a beliefe system that provides an alternative answer.

Where do you think human beings came from?

	16-08-2005 05:53									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I believe in creation.

You're a Christian commie, like Jon Miller?

quote: Why do you say it's a cornerstone?

The theory of evolution is nothing more than dialectics. Dialectics understands that the everything changes, that everything that is came from something else, that incremental change can result in something entirely new, etc. The Theory of Evolution, especially punctuated equilibrium, is a dialectical understanding of the origins of modern species and the differentition of life.

	16-08-2005 06:16									#288
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I believe in both. Evolution is just one aspect of Deus ex machina. Many creationists see evolution as demeaning to mankind as God's special creation. My feeling is that the very idea that we're part of the awsome complexity and diversity of the entire biome, even it's apparent end point is as actually elevating. I mean, I have difficulty just making a string of paper dolls come out right, but for God to give a little proto-matter a little shove and come up with us demonstrates some mad skills at organizing..... and it's flattering too.

	16-08-2005 07:12									#289
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Monkspider was a Christian Commie

hasn't posted in a while..

JM

	16-08-2005 07:24									#290
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I believe in creation. You're a Christian commie, like Jon Miller?

I was always spiritual, but I've been a Christian for about a month now. I'm still not religious though.

quote: quote: Why do you say it's a cornerstone? The theory of evolution is nothing more than dialectics. Dialectics understands that the everything changes, that everything that is came from something else, that incremental change can result in something entirely new, etc. The Theory of Evolution, especially punctuated equilibrium, is a dialectical understanding of the origins of modern species and the differentition of life.

Dialectic materialism is a cornerstone. I didn't think ToE had much to do with it (Marxism).

	16-08-2005 07:39									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm just more skeptical of the idea that man evolved from apes.

Humans did not evolved from apes. Where did you get that from, Creationists?

Humans and the great apes came from a common ancestor.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The idea seems much more incredible that the idea that it isn't true. Without 100% proof I can't make myself believe it.

Science does not prove things - and nothing other than facts in science is ever 100%.

It is amusing that you would use gravity as something science completely understands. Among the four basic forces gravity is the least understood. As a matte of fact, according to GR, gravity is not a force.

	16-08-2005 07:44									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Humans did not evolved from apes. Where did you get that from, Creationists? Humans and the great apes came from a common ancestor.

Pond scum?

	16-08-2005 07:44									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The hard part is believing that an intelligent, spiritual species evolving from an plain animal.

How do you know the great apes aren't spritual? Talked with them lately?

	16-08-2005 07:45									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How do you know the great apes aren't spritual? Talked with them lately?

I don't know, but we didn't evolve from them anyway.

	16-08-2005 07:51									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Religion will always be the result of a loophole in human psychology resulting in brainwashing, especially of the naive.

Even Martin Gardner, who has spent most of his life fighting pseudoscience rubbish, believes in a god. His diety is "wholely other," which means it is completely unknownable to us. Furthermore, his diety is a transcendental clockmaker, as opposed to Christianity's interventionist one.

Logically, by Occam's Razor, such a diety is completely meaningless and should be cut out. Gardnet confesses his reason for such a reason is purely emotional, that he cannot accept the fact that there's nothing after death.

	16-08-2005 07:55									#296
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, Kid seems to be taking a more post-modernist approach here, saying that at some point or another, we take something at faith for the begining of our belief systems.

Postmodernism - are you talking about the "sociology-ise of everything," making everything relative and cultural dependent?

This reminds me of a humourous prank pulled by a physicist. I read it in Martin Gardner's Did Adam and Eve have navals? If I remember it later I will dig it up and post it here.

	16-08-2005 08:07									#297
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I'm not a relativist either. I don't condon ToE on the basic premises. I just have a strong spiritual belief that human beings were created by God which leads me to believe that we did not evolve from lower life forms. I could be wrong, and if I were shown proof that I was I would admit it. But like I said, all the proof that I've seen shows that it's possible that we evolved from lower life forms, not that we did.

	16-08-2005 08:44									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm just more skeptical of the idea that man evolved from apes. The idea seems much more incredible that the idea that it isn't true.

So the idea that man is the result of millions of years of slow incremental change in species is incredible, but you can accept that a magical, omnipotent being poofed the universe/mankind into existence? Perhaps I'm having trouble with your definition of "incredible."

At least we've empirically observed evolution occuring in the world. Same can't be said for the above magical entity.

quote: Without 100% proof I can't make myself believe it. I don't think of it as faith, but more of an innate idea.

What has 100% proof in this world? Nothing I know of. But the evidence for evolution IS overwhelming. I sincerely doubt you even know much about it (read a book on it?), but you just reject it because it doesn't sound right to you. If you can't see why others deem that stupid, then that's your problem.

As I said before, there isn't much difference between willful ignorance and stupidity.

	16-08-2005 08:45									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I just have a strong spiritual belief that human beings were created by God which leads me to believe that we did not evolve from lower life forms.

Logical fallacy 101. How do you know ToE wasn't HOW this god created human beings? That's what millions of Christians believe. It's called theistic evolution.

	16-08-2005 08:46									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What has 100% proof in this world?

my pwnage!