17-08-2005 20:21									#31
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quote: [SIZE=5] He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger. (what!?!?!?!?!?!)

WHAT?

	17-08-2005 20:21									#32
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quote: Is your father's penis bigger than yours?

	17-08-2005 20:21									#33
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that be a YES

	17-08-2005 20:23									#34
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What an amazing article. It concentrates sexism to the utmost degree, and as a result it logically contains a ton of homophobia.

Fortunately, despite the attempts of these pressure groups, society is set in a direction where gender roles will continue to lose relevance, and they can't do anything about it.

Unless they understand the real causes behind it, but they'd never want to tackle them.

	17-08-2005 20:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not that I consciously remember. Now, he would help me take showers when I was little (like shampooing my hair for me and rinsing), but I don't remember actually ever being in a shower or bath with him. Okay, this thread is really starting to creep me out.

Why ?? You do realize when you were very little that he would have washed you all over right? My son is usually given baths but sometimes I find it easier and quicker to bring him inthe shower. What's the big deal??

	17-08-2005 20:25									#36
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quote: Why would I want to agree with it? Most of it seems contrary to everything I've ever witnessed or learned from reputable conduits of knowledge.

Most of it? Does that mean there are a few kernels of truth? What things do you agree with?

quote: I've got gay friends that never once displayed any of the tendencies this guy mentions, and are still bastions of masculinity today, but prefer the company of men, so-to-speak.

And less than macho men who like women. You can always find folks who don't fit the general pattern. That doesn't mean some of these points here aren't valid, particularly regarding the role of fathers.

	17-08-2005 20:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller edit: I would like to add that I am not particularly effeminate JM

SURE SURE you're not

	17-08-2005 20:27									#38
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quote: I'm sure you could find some circlejerks of ignorance that are more to your liking Ben.

As opposed to this circlejerk of enlightenment?

	17-08-2005 20:28									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Some of it makes sense to me, especially the statement that boys without a male role model in their lives are going to find things more difficult in finding their own male role.

I can agree with that. Role models can be important but I'm betting that people without them are more likley to be a dysfunctional wife-beating homophobe

	17-08-2005 20:30									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Why ?? You do realize when you were very little that he would have washed you all over right? My son is usually given baths but sometimes I find it easier and quicker to bring him inthe shower. What's the big deal??

I didn't mean that it was creepy for you to take your kid into the shower, I meant that I was creeped out by thinking about whether or not I've ever showered with my dad. Who really wants to think about that?

	17-08-2005 20:34									#41
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quote: Role models can be important but I'm betting that people without them are more likley to be a dysfunctional wife-beating homophobe

Why homophobe? Ain't it enough to be a wife beater, or do you have to be a homophobe to be truly awful?

	17-08-2005 20:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Most of it? Does that mean there are a few kernels of truth? What things do you agree with?

Well even in crap there is stuff I can agree with. I didn't do a complete line by line but here is a sample of statements in there I agree with

quote: Originally posted by FoTF You needn't worry about occasional cross-dressing.

I don't and won't.

quote: Originally posted by FOTF He may start using his mother's makeup. He may avoid other boys in the neighborhood and their rough-and-tumble activities and prefer being with his sisters instead, who play with dolls and dollhouses. Later he may start speaking in a high-pitched voice. He may affect the exaggerated gestures and even the walk of a girl, or become fascinated with long hair, earrings and scarves.

Yes boys will playact as girls and vice-versa-- so what??

quote: Originally posted by FOTF t is important to understand, however, that most of my homosexual clients were not explicitly feminine when they were children. A boy can be sensitive, kind, social, artistic, gentle—and be heterosexual. He can be an artist, an actor, a dancer, a cook, a musician—and heterosexual. These innate artistic skills are "who he is," part of the wonderful range of human abilities, and there's no reason to discourage them. But they can all be developed within the context of normal heterosexual manhood.

I might dispute the use of the word "normal" but in my head I choose to amend it to " normal heterosexual or homosexual manhood"

quote: Originally posted by FOTF In my opinion (and in the opinion of an increasing number of researchers), the father plays an essential role in a boy's normal development as a man.

I am a father. How could I dispute I will have a key role in my son's development. Its just that my view of his "normal" development would include the possibility that he would be homosexual.

	17-08-2005 20:44									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why homophobe? Ain't it enough to be a wife beater, or do you have to be a homophobe to be truly awful?

Being a wife-beater usually comes from the idea that your "male role" allows you to beat your woman. It's a gender role pushed to the extreme.

An extreme adhesion to gender roles bears homophobia in itself, along with intolerance toward all kinds of behaviours that don't fit gender roles.

	17-08-2005 20:46									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I didn't mean that it was creepy for you to take your kid into the shower, I meant that I was creeped out by thinking about whether or not I've ever showered with my dad. Who really wants to think about that?

I suppose. I just thought about myself and while I assume I might have been at some point, I can't recall it as i was likely too young. Thinking about it didn't creep me out at all though.

Oh-oh-- since I'm straight and you are gay, Ben K will pounce on this as evidence of SOMETHING dire.

	17-08-2005 20:50									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Being a wife-beater usually comes from the idea that your "male role" allows you to beat your woman. It's a gender role pushed to the extreme.

Yes -- the point is that someone without good role models will not have experienced positive inter-gender relationships

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor An extreme adhesion to gender roles bears homophobia in itself, along with intolerance toward all kinds of behaviours that don't fit gender roles.

Again -- less experience can mean more extreme viewpoints




My son will never see a hand raised in anger-- to him or anyone else. This SHOULD mean that as an adult, the violence aspect will not occurr to him either

	17-08-2005 20:51									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber My son will never see a hand raised in anger

	17-08-2005 21:03									#47
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Flubber:

Just make sure you ain't quoting me when you mean to quote the FotF article.

quote: I might dispute the use of the word "normal" but in my head I choose to amend it to " normal heterosexual or homosexual manhood"

Which raises the interesting question of what lies outside 'normal' male behaviour for you Flubber.

I find it interesting your antipathy towards violence and the broad term labelled 'homophobia'. I don't equate the two, and nor do I think most wife beaters are homophobes.

	17-08-2005 21:06									#48
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quote: Being a wife-beater usually comes from the idea that your "male role" allows you to beat your woman. It's a gender role pushed to the extreme. An extreme adhesion to gender roles bears homophobia in itself, along with intolerance toward all kinds of behaviours that don't fit gender roles.

So wifebeating and homophobia are really one and the same? Symptoms of the same problem?

What if I were to argue a man who was secure in his role would never want to lay a hand on his wife?

	17-08-2005 21:09									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Exactly-- There are gay jocks, fighters, wrestlers, footballers-- the most masculine of men-- heck aren't their a fairly high number of gay bodybuilders?

You're implying there are bodybuilders who are not gay?

	17-08-2005 21:12									#50
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i thought nothing could shock me anymore.
reading this is a new low
i can't believe someone would really believe this crap.

on the other hand... i found out from reading this im probably a lesbian .... isn't that great news.
since i like to wear mens clothing.. jeans and tshirt
are my favorite attaire. my best friend is a male.
and most of my online friends are male. humm
guess ive been in denial.

what a crock of BS .. and their headquarters is in the town i live in.
i think i need to write him a long letter.. go camp on his doorstep till he talks to me .. this is such nonsense.

im ashamed to be associated in any manner with these stupid christians. my faith is defiled with their stupidness.

	17-08-2005 21:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Flubber: Just make sure you ain't quoting me when you mean to quote the FotF article.

Fixed-- Sorry about that-- I'd forgotten about the "posted by" piece and I just wanted to put the article bits inside quotes

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Which raises the interesting question of what lies outside 'normal' male behaviour for you Flubber.

Not that interesting really. If my son grows up to be a productive contributing member of society that can treat all people with respect -- I frankly don't care which gender he has sex with

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I find it interesting your antipathy towards violence and the broad term labelled 'homophobia'. I don't equate the two, and nor do I think most wife beaters are homophobes.

Maybe. maybe not . As you so homophobe is a pretty broad term and here I could have specified more but what I was getting to was the type of person that might beat a gay person simply because they are gay. I DO think that a person that will be violent in one circumstance is more likely to be violent in another

	17-08-2005 21:19									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So wifebeating and homophobia are really one and the same? Symptoms of the same problem?

They don't systematically stem from the same problem (homophobia can come from closeted homosexuality, while wife-beating can come from a generally violent behaviour).
However, they can be the symptoms of the same problem, and many societies where wife-beating is accepted are also extremely homophobic.

quote: What if I were to argue a man who was secure in his role would never want to lay a hand on his wife?

That's your definition of a male role. If you were a Saudi husband, you'd believe that it's just as normal to "educate" your wife as you do your children. That's your job as the leader of the family.

	17-08-2005 21:21									#53
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Flubber:

quote: I'd forgotten about the "posted by" piece and I just wanted to put the article bits inside

np, I got a chuckle out of that

quote: Not that interesting really. If my son grows up to be a productive contributing member of society that can treat all people with respect -- I frankly don't care which gender he has sex with

Fair enough. It's just that if you are going to use a term like 'normal' that means there must be some things that are abnormal.

quote: As you so homophobe is a pretty broad term and here I could have specified more but what I was getting to was the type of person that might beat a gay person simply because they are gay.

Agreed, but I don't think the majority of folks who use the term 'homophobe' would narrow the definition to include only those who physically harm gay people just because they are gay. Your definition makes more sense to me, than the broader one.

	17-08-2005 21:21									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So wifebeating and homophobia are really one and the same? Symptoms of the same problem?

well yes-- I think a person that beats his wife or gay-bashes has a problem with their use of violence ! Also my definition of homophobe is

a person who hates or fears homosexual people


A person that simply thinks it is wrong or immoral or whatever, does not qualify.

	17-08-2005 21:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor

OH and spiffor- I don't see the need for thumbs up here. I think it sad actually that what I consider such an obvious thing would not be the usual thing in all households. I was never physically punished yet my parents were some of the strictest around.

	17-08-2005 21:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Agreed, but I don't think the majority of folks who use the term 'homophobe' would narrow the definition to include only those who physically harm gay people just because they are gay. You definition makes more sense to me, than the broader one.

To me a homophobe isn't someone that necessarily HAS harmed a gay person. The definition I used was from dictionary.com BTW. But when I see words like "hate", that goes beyond mere dislike or disapproval. That to me makes a homophone the type of person that would wish harm on a gay person for being gay.

Put simply I don't think the 105 lb homophobe is any less homophobic if he has prudently never actually taken a swing at someone

	17-08-2005 21:36									#57
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Here in the civilized world, physical punishment of children is illegal.

	17-08-2005 21:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Here in the civilized world, physical punishment of children is illegal.

But be realistic. Is the state there every time a 2 or 3 year old gets their buns smacked??

NOPE.

	17-08-2005 21:41									#59
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physical punishment is illegal? how do repremand a kid?

	17-08-2005 21:48									#60
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Psychological torture, like here in the enlightened world


On the article:

This reminds me this duscussion I had with Mr. Fun the other day about nature and nurture in homosexuality. This article is a perfect example of how not to approach the issue. From what I've seen, homosexuality is affected a lot by the upbringing, but this just shows how far we are from fully understanding the forces shaping sexual attraction in the human brain.