17-08-2005 21:50									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber But be realistic. Is the state there every time a 2 or 3 year old gets their buns smacked?? NOPE.

So, because a law can't be enforced 100% of the time, you shouldn't have it?

	17-08-2005 21:57									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist So, because a law can't be enforced 100% of the time, you shouldn't have it?

Nope didn't say that-- but when a law can be enforced closer to 0% of the time, I would not be trumpeting it as proof of being the "civilized world"

Realistically, how often is your law enforced if the child is not harmed??

	17-08-2005 21:58									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Japher physical punishment is illegal? how do repremand a kid?

I hope you are joking. There are thousands of possible punishments a child will remember that do not involve pain

	17-08-2005 22:05									#64
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quote: From what I've seen, homosexuality is affected a lot by the upbringing, but this just shows how far we are from fully understanding the forces shaping sexual attraction in the human brain.

I agree with you here

It also illustrates the depth of our ignorance surrounding the term 'sexual orientation.'

	17-08-2005 22:22									#65
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If it was only a method for erasing feminism out of males, I wouldn´t be against it, as I see some guys of my age behaving like girls and really humiliating themselves day by day. Does hating girlie gays make me homophobe?

	17-08-2005 22:26									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit If it was only a method for erasing feminism out of males, I wouldn´t be against it, as I see some guys of my age behaving like girls and really humiliating themselves day by day. Does hating girlie gays make me homophobe?

Depends . . . could you see yourself beating one of them simply because they were a "girly gay" in the absence of any agressive act from them?

	17-08-2005 22:31									#67
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No way

	17-08-2005 22:32									#68
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That's only cause Datajack is a girly man who'd probably get beat up by one of dem flamers...

	17-08-2005 22:47									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I think that some of the difference is that the effeminate men are told that they are gay I know that I have been told I was gay (or joked that I was gay, or thought that I was gay by people who knew me well.. etc)

I was rather effeminite growing up. Out of high school I was rather androgynous. I don't think anyone who knew me now would believe I am the same person.

	17-08-2005 22:49									#70
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why?

	17-08-2005 22:51									#71
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quote: Originally posted by boann on the other hand... i found out from reading this im probably a lesbian .... isn't that great news.

It would explain your luck with men.

	17-08-2005 22:52									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Japher why?

I'm nothing like that anymore.

	17-08-2005 22:54									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman So his solution to gay kids is more rough-and-tumble play and showering together. Brilliant.

Yeah, Just look at the Boy Scouts. Nothing gay there.

	17-08-2005 22:54									#74
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quote: I'm nothing like that anymore.

because you cut your hair?

	17-08-2005 22:57									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So wifebeating and homophobia are really one and the same? Symptoms of the same problem?

Yes, heterosexism, the idea that each gender has certain, particular, prescribed (and proscribed) roles in society).

quote: What if I were to argue a man who was secure in his role would never want to lay a hand on his wife?

Most spouse abusers do not want to hit anyone. They just lose control of their anger. Anyone who belives they have a role they need to be secure in, is more likely to lose control of their anger when outside circumstances causes their "role" to be insecure. For example, financial insecurity increases the frequency and severity of spousal abuse.

	17-08-2005 23:01									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Japher because you cut your hair?

Because I don't try to be fashionable, I'm not fastidious about my appearance (I'm 100 lbs heavier), I'm gruffer looking, my demeanor is more "manly," etc.

	18-08-2005 00:52									#77
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quote: That's only cause Datajack is a girly man who'd probably get beat up by one of dem flamers

I´m masculine. Even when getting ****ed

	18-08-2005 01:06									#78
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quote: heterosexism, the idea that each gender has certain, particular, prescribed (and proscribed) roles in society).

Interesting definition. So everyone who believes that men and women are different should also believe in wife beating? Hardly.

quote: Most spouse abusers do not want to hit anyone. They just lose control of their anger. Anyone who belives they have a role they need to be secure in, is more likely to lose control of their anger when outside circumstances causes their "role" to be insecure. For example, financial insecurity increases the frequency and severity of spousal abuse.

Let me put it this way. How would the abuser regain his role by beating his wife? The idea is that in asserting control, he can affirm his role. That's the difference between the folks who say that there are different roles between men and women, and between the abusers. The abusers believe that abuse will strengthen rather than weaken their authority.

	18-08-2005 01:30									#79
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It would explain your luck with men.

boann thinks of all the possiblities..
more selection.. i could be bi...

	18-08-2005 01:33									#80
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and on a more serious note.
do any of you really know anything about spouse
abuse... except pulling data out of your ***

let me tell you from experience..
its nothing about sexual gender.
and its everything about control and power.
has nothing to do with being female or male
because there are abusers from both genders.

	18-08-2005 01:40									#81
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"Masculinity is an achievement." [He] meant that growing up straight isn't something that happens."


It's been a long and winding road.

I'd like to thank all the little people who helped me on my way, especially my father for brandishing his shocking man-appendage at me, thereby shocking me from girly-boy decadence into rough-and-tumble junior football star in a single phallic relevation.

Remember folks, hetero doesn't "just happen". You have to WORK at it, day in, day out. I recommend group showers, contact team sports with locker rooms and 'learning about masculinity' in those locker rooms after the Big Game, and etc etc...

Semi-serious PS: Does anyone else think the author is a seriously suppressed/latent homosexual? I'm getting a very strong vibe that way.

	18-08-2005 01:43									#82
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This would be hilarious if he did live conferences and stuff like that - he'd get carried away on stage.

	18-08-2005 01:47									#83
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Is that directed at me boann?

I can only go on what others have told me.

	18-08-2005 01:52									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit I´m masculine. Even when getting ****ed

And there's no reason you wouldn't be. I'm betting there are big burly guys that are "bottoms" and feminine looking guys that are tops.

I don't see why this wouldn't be the case since I know guys that are feminine but are heterosexual horndogs and I know big burly masculine guys that are gay only.

	18-08-2005 02:00									#85
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quote: Originally posted by boann and on a more serious note. do any of you really know anything about spouse abuse... except pulling data out of your ***

I never experienced it . I don't think I would put up with it if someone began to abuse me but that's much easier to say in the abstract and when I am financially and emotionally secure.

The closest I came was dating a girl whose relationship prior to mine was with an abusive guy. After a while she related a bit about the beatings and the shelter visits and the rapes (both vaginal and anal). After leaving him she purchased two pistols and went to the range regularly. She kept one of them loaded and under her bed.

She wasa beautiful woman and academically smart but after she and I broke up, she went back out with the guy. I don't claim to understand at all the cycle some abused people go through, but I did have a viewing of some of it

	18-08-2005 02:34									#86
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****** ******** **** ****** ****** ***** *****, that's about what I have to say about this article.

	18-08-2005 03:54									#87
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ben and flubber, i wasn't directing that at any one person...

abuse really isn't gender related.. thats all im saying in relation to this thread. theres a few posts talking about macho men and abusers... just saying abusers are not just male.

	18-08-2005 13:34									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I can agree with that. Role models can be important but I'm betting that people without them are more likley to be a dysfunctional wife-beating homophobe

That really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. "Wife beating" aka domestic physical abuse is most likely where it is modeled for the children by their parents, but can arise in anyone who has their own boundaries violated and who consequently adopt a mindset that makes that ok in certain situations. Typically the only people who get along with these folks in relationships are those who have similar mindsets (ie it's ok to hit your partner, or ok for them to hit you). What this has to do with the lack of a male role model I'm not sure.

Homophobia seems to have several roots. First there is the sexually insecure person who has homosexual feelings, or who has been teased for being effeminate etc. They fear being humiliated by the discovery of any contact with homosexuals, or in the case of the repressed homosexual feelings they fear their own reaction to homosexuals. Others fear homosexuals because they consider homosexuality to be sinful and they don't want to associate with it in any way out of religiously inspired fear. Again I don't see where a male role model fits into this picture.

	18-08-2005 13:44									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Being a wife-beater usually comes from the idea that your "male role" allows you to beat your woman. It's a gender role pushed to the extreme. An extreme adhesion to gender roles bears homophobia in itself, along with intolerance toward all kinds of behaviours that don't fit gender roles.

That's true in particular in certain societies where gender roles are traditionally extreme, but isn't so true in the west anymore. It's an abberation now and far from the norm, and even people who do this are quite aware of that. Unfortunately for them it's a difficult thing to get over or put a stop to once they've patterned themselves on that psychological model. Hence you have the woman with a long series of abusive boyfriends who should know better. Her problem is that she is only attracted to people who are willing to violate her boundaries, and isn't sure that someone loves her unless they are violating her boundaries. She will go so far as to provoke a lover when she is desperate enough for that sort of reassurance. Of course the gender roles can be and often are reversed, and this sort of abuse can be verbal as well as physical.

	18-08-2005 13:47									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You're implying there are bodybuilders who are not gay?

Sure. There are probably even bodybuilders who are not a$$holes as well.