19-08-2005 01:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Here's an idea - if high school isn't teaching anything and everyone needs a college degree, why not compress the lack of curriculum into 9 years, and have people go to college after junior high?

I like this idea, athough I don't thing parents, especially overprotective and/or very socially conservative ones, would go along with sending thier kids off to college at age 14. But it may be the only way, because many schools, especially rural ones like my former K-12 school, wouldn't have the resources, or number of students (There were only around 80-90 people total in grades 9-12 in my rural school, as opposed to colleges who have thousands of students) to have the great variety of classes a college or tech school would have.

	19-08-2005 02:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, ever since conservatives started trying to "fix" public education, it's been getting poorer and poorer results. Is there anything these people can do right?

come on, you know you dont need an education to be able to join the army right? That's the 'education program' i think

	19-08-2005 02:14									#33
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Most parents couldn't afford to send there kids to college for 9 years. Even if tuition was subsidized, there is still a considerable expense for room and board.

This would hurt middle to low income people the most and would probably be labeled racist.

	19-08-2005 11:54									#34
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Not all colleges are traditional four-year institutions; there are thousands of community colleges and for-profit institutions such as the University of Phoenix. The majority of college students live at home and commute. Likewise if a 9 years and then college system were implemented, most people would be going to colleges in the local area.

Rural students would still be screwed, but at least we have online learning today.

	19-08-2005 12:02									#35
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More online learning

I can't wait for the day that all students and pupils will be given free laptops. I am not for disbanding the classroom, I just think that more content should be written and read from computers, instead of wasteful books and notebooks that hurt the kids' backs.

	19-08-2005 12:14									#36
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Still, this whole discussion may be off-base (at Poly? I'm shocked, shocked! . Over half the students currently in college are non-traditional students; that is, the model of college whereby an 18-year-old graduates from high school and immediately begins four years of collegiate study is no longer the dominant model of attending college in the US. Whether a high school student is ready for college, then, may not be a relevant question.

From a personal perspective, I loved teaching non-traditional students: they had real-world experience that could be brought to bear on classroom discussions, and "real life" had given them life skills (like the ability to meet deadlines and do work without whining about it) that any professor would love.

Still, I taught an awful lot of kids who weren't ready for college-level work.

	19-08-2005 12:31									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Az More online learning I can't wait for the day that all students and pupils will be given free laptops. I am not for disbanding the classroom, I just think that more content should be written and read from computers, instead of wasteful books and notebooks that hurt the kids' backs.

San Francisco has approved a charter school that is entirely internet based. Students are given all the necessary goodies; work is graded by real teachers elsewhere, perhaps a solution to high housing costs pricing teachers out of San Francisco.

	19-08-2005 12:42									#38
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Nah, I still approve of teacher-student interaction, and recognize the importance of kids socializing IRL in a controlled enviroment. This sort of stuff kinda lacks it all. My plan for education is to:

a) replace all books and notebooks with a touchscreen writable laptop.
b) introduce the most efficient techniques for the learning of math and science basics, and investing into more research in the area.
c)More general literature education with the emphasis of introducing the kids to more works of art. ( not just literary art, but film, painting and music, classic and contemporary)
d) Introducing general skills teaching ( oldschool shop, some outdoors, manners, and sex ed)
e) more physical education.

In an age of parents who care less and less, a parent-state for kids may be the only way to go. It's the implimentation of the emphasis on quality in the education system conveyor belt.

	19-08-2005 12:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker And stop blaming teachers again Sikander.

I didn't even start blaming them.

	19-08-2005 13:25									#40
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You said they were of "lower quality" and attributed this to your unfounded more women in the workforce theory.

	19-08-2005 14:51									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You said they were of "lower quality" and attributed this to your unfounded more women in the workforce theory.

It's not unfounded, it's accepted wisdom. Someone in a panel discussion on education on the Newshour said the same thing and none of the other 3 guests lodged any objection. It's a simple fact. At one time teaching and nursing were the best available professions for most educated women. After WW2 a lot of professions were gradually opened to women, and women took advantage of the opportunities. This diluted the talent pool for the teaching profession while increasing the talent pool for many others.

	19-08-2005 21:12									#42
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Simple fact, okay.

The problem with that theory is that this same "talent pool" of educated women is now directly competing with the entire labor force, thus squeezing them out of their own fields. So you have people coming out of other fields and into teaching, instead of lifelong teachers.

On top of that, there is the increased opportunity for minorities to become teachers, so it's really a wash.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

	19-08-2005 21:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by rah And sometimes it's not the school but the attitude of the student that counts. A good student will find a way to succeed at a below average school. A bad student will fail no matter how good the school is.

Mediocre students are turned into good ones at a good school and into bad ones at a bad school.

	19-08-2005 22:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Simple fact, okay. The problem with that theory is that this same "talent pool" of educated women is now directly competing with the entire labor force, thus squeezing them out of their own fields. So you have people coming out of other fields and into teaching, instead of lifelong teachers.

Except that women weren't in many other fields. Unless you're saying women who would be secretaries or nurses are now teachers...

	19-08-2005 22:50									#45
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Only if they want to or don't want to.
A great teacher may be able to motivate a student, but a school in general doesn't.
Now if you said a mediocre student can be turned into a good one, I'd be more likely to agree with you.

	19-08-2005 22:55									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The problem with that theory is that this same "talent pool" of educated women is now directly competing with the entire labor force, thus squeezing them out of their own fields. So you have people coming out of other fields and into teaching, instead of lifelong teachers.

So your theory is that the most talented women who may have otherwise been teachers are now pushing presumably less qualified men into teaching? And this wouldn't effect teaching quality how?

	20-08-2005 00:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, ever since conservatives started trying to "fix" public education, it's been getting poorer and poorer results.

Yes, they should be pushing for more african-american and diversity studies.

	20-08-2005 06:03									#48
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Speaking of teachers good and bad...

A few months ago I read about an idea to fix the education system by doubling both teacher salaries and class sizes, the logic being one good teacher is better than two bad ones.

I have college classes with close to 1,000 people in one room, surely not every high school class needs to be 25 people or less.

	20-08-2005 06:23									#49
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When I started college it took a couple of months before I gotten so discouraged about my lack of preparation that I seriously thought about dropping. I managed to fill some gaps, but my high school standards were so low.. my english teacher had no clue about the right prononciation of words, and often committed grammar errors while writing something: And correcting right sentences too.

	20-08-2005 06:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by rah Only if they want to or don't want to. A great teacher may be able to motivate a student, but a school in general doesn't. Now if you said a mediocre student can be turned into a good one, I'd be more likely to agree with you.

Yep like I said about my school - the whole thing was great. Teachers were terrific and principal was very supportive of teachers and the community was supportive as well. The result was that most of us winded up in Ivy League schools.

	20-08-2005 06:49									#51
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Maybe not everyone should go to college.

	20-08-2005 07:05									#52
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quote: replace all books and notebooks with a touchscreen writable laptop.

We are already losing our calligraphy skills

	20-08-2005 07:12									#53
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the figures are sad only if you believe everyone should go to college

the sadder thing is universities have turned into vocational training institutes which spit out millions of graduates WHO CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

A good liberal education is hard to find these days.

	20-08-2005 07:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Az More online learning I can't wait for the day that all students and pupils will be given free laptops. I am not for disbanding the classroom, I just think that more content should be written and read from computers, instead of wasteful books and notebooks that hurt the kids' backs.

Disband the classroom

	20-08-2005 07:21									#55
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that's ridiculous - so misguided

	21-08-2005 01:01									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki So your theory is that the most talented women who may have otherwise been teachers are now pushing presumably less qualified men into teaching? And this wouldn't effect teaching quality how?

You're assuming the men get bumped out because of qualifications. The sheer numbers of women alone in the other jobs means that all men, regardless of ability will get squeezed out.

Jobs don't always get filled by the most qualified person. Heh, anyone who has worked at a company has seen this, often it's about who you know or just being in the right place at the right time, etc.

	21-08-2005 01:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Except that women weren't in many other fields. Unless you're saying women who would be secretaries or nurses are now teachers...

You're not even following along. Must have had a bad teacher...

	21-08-2005 01:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse the figures are sad only if you believe everyone should go to college the sadder thing is universities have turned into vocational training institutes which spit out millions of graduates WHO CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES. A good liberal education is hard to find these days.

I agree with Horse, the classical education is very important and dying out to the corporate whoreing machine.

	21-08-2005 03:33									#59
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what are you studying btw Ted?

	21-08-2005 03:52									#60
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A true liberal education goes against the current and growing idea of a college education as an economic commodity, nothing more than a primer for a job.

The vast mayority of jobs out there don't require someone to go to college AT ALL. If high schools did a good enough job teaching writing skills, then a huge number of people could go straight from high scool to private or public employment. Sometimes I think people just see college as a way to "age" the kids before they actually go to work-what they learn in those four years becoming irrelevant as long as they got a degree.

A true Liberal education forces the student to study a wide range of subject and exposes them to a great variety. That is one of the reasons I loved UofC and its extremely intensive core, because it forces everyone to explore all the different disciplines so they have at least a basic understanding. MOst collages don't do that- you go, you take the classes you are interested in, and your done.