25-08-2005 21:42									#151
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Iran?

Last I checked, Iranian regulars weren't invading Iraq.

	25-08-2005 21:44									#152
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Not yet anyway...

	25-08-2005 23:32									#153
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quote: There's absolutely no basis on which to say that it will go like Tet.

Then it isn't like Tet.

Unless you think it is a valid comparison to match it up with paying your taxes, which is also nationwide.

	25-08-2005 23:33									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Last I checked, Iranian regulars weren't invading Iraq.

no reason to...

according to newsweek and the us news and world report... after the initial stages of the war, 30,000 iranian agents poured into iraq...

as bill maher so eloquently put it, "they had a post-war plan, we didn't"

	26-08-2005 07:52									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker And if it goes like Tet did, the US will come out on top.

Wait, who ended up in control of Vietnam at the end?

Tactical victories can still be grand strategic defeats. A Tet style attack, while utterly implausible given the dmeographic realities of Iraq, would be a HUGE political hit for the administration.

	26-08-2005 08:31									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander The U.S. withdrew and was never overrun. The war was lost 3 years after the last U.S. ground forces left the country. Oh, and this thread has been Stricken!

US abandoned the place, NVA troops entered those areas that were abandoned, thus being OVERRUN. 3 years later, big deal.

Okay so they were overwalked. They were overstrolled. They were overmeandered.

thanks.

	26-08-2005 08:35									#157
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I bet Sikander cried when Rambo said, "Can we win this time?"

	26-08-2005 08:38									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus The concept of 'Creative Destruction' might thrill the Cabal's chicken-hawk attendees of 'Black Coffee Briefings' but it was never properly defined or thought through, and it was never going to work. The problem is that democracy works best, if at all, when home-grown. Attempts to impose it through the barrel of a gun upon a people with no historical development of democratic forces and principles can only end in tears. Even if, somewhere down the road, Iraq 'stabilises' in some way, there's no guarantee that what ends up will be any better than what was before. The grotesque nature of the so-called 'resistance' may not be to the invaders design, but the occupying powers can't pretend that these forces are nothing to do with their actions. I kind-of sympathise with people who are putting a brave face on the Iraq situation, even if I disagree with them on the whole principle of interventionism. I'd just stress my point that we cannot fix the world through projection of military power. Thats not 'self-loathing' by the way. Opposition to misguided foreign adventures is very different to rolling over to the ideology of bearded fascists when they attack your own country. Thanks

VERY GOOD POST



Democracy at the point of a gun is NOT democracy.

I think Iraq eventually will stabalize but things like Salvadorian government death squads are going to be created in the process in order to deal with the insurgents. The insurgency will die out only because the government gets really mean and nasty.

So what we are going to have is not the Germany/Japan utopian outcome these foolish neocons envisioned.

I can't really come up with a parallel situation because there really isn't a model out today that resembles it. Sort of a meaner Pakistan with the radical element squashed by fear.

	26-08-2005 08:40									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I bet Sikander cried when Rambo said, "Can we win this time?"

That was Rambo 2 huh?

	26-08-2005 08:41									#160
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By the way this whole Tet comparison is silly.

	26-08-2005 08:41									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That was Rambo 2 huh?

I dunno... after the first one, they were all pretty much the same

	26-08-2005 09:21									#162
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quote: as bill maher so eloquently put it, "they had a post-war plan, we didn't"

	26-08-2005 09:36									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker By the way this whole Tet comparison is silly.

You certainly picked up on it pretty quick.

	26-08-2005 09:41									#164
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An astute observation.

Thanks

	26-08-2005 13:58									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I think Iraq eventually will stabalize but things like Salvadorian government death squads are going to be created in the process in order to deal with the insurgents. The insurgency will die out only because the government gets really mean and nasty.

I read somewhere that the guy responsible for setting up the death squads in El Salvador is already in Iraq - perhaps that US journo Steve Vincent was getting too close to the truth when he was bumped off in Basra...

	26-08-2005 15:37									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I bet Sikander cried when Rambo said, "Can we win this time?"

I only had "the pleasure" of seeing the second Rambo movie. It was so bad that it was booed and laughed at so continuously that no one could maintain their suspension of disbelief.

	26-08-2005 15:40									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I only had "the pleasure" of seeing the second Rambo movie. It was so bad that it was booed and laughed at so continuously that no one could maintain their suspension of disbelief.

Apparently it was popular with Afghans during the Taliban regime and also with warring New Guinea tribesmen.

It may have found a niche market to 'entertain'...

I suppose it helps if you don't necessarily have a perfect grasp of English when you watch it.

	26-08-2005 15:47									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker US abandoned the place, NVA troops entered those areas that were abandoned, thus being OVERRUN. 3 years later, big deal. Okay so they were overwalked. They were overstrolled. They were overmeandered. thanks.

They actually overextended themselves in an attempt to give ARVN the bums rush in 1972. ARVN fought a lot more proficiently than they expected and the NVA suffered such serious losses that they expected it would take a decade to recover their former strength. The attack in 1975 was their first serious operation since 1972 and had very limited objectives. Unfortunately for South Vietnam it was timed to coincide with Thieu's own crisis of confidence in the U.S. due to the radical Dems doing their utmost to cut the legs from under the regime in the south. The Vietnam war might have been lost by the South in the long run, but it was lost in 1975 because of Watergate.

	26-08-2005 15:48									#169
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Apparently it was popular with Afghans during the Taliban regime and also with warring New Guinea tribesmen. It may have found a niche market to 'entertain'... I suppose it helps if you don't necessarily have a perfect grasp of English when you watch it.

I know I was wishing I didn't understand english while I was watching it.

	26-08-2005 15:50									#170
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS I read somewhere that the guy responsible for setting up the death squads in El Salvador is already in Iraq - perhaps that US journo Steve Vincent was getting too close to the truth when he was bumped off in Basra...

Maybe you could replace him. Someone should continue to do that important work and you'd be safe as a bug in the rug in the British sector, what with all of their experience in Northern Ireland and all.

	26-08-2005 15:58									#171
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How can you ridicule the actions of a great american hero, next you'll be telling me its all made up

	26-08-2005 16:45									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Maybe you could replace him. Someone should continue to do that important work and you'd be safe as a bug in the rug in the British sector, what with all of their experience in Northern Ireland and all.

Basra is the British sector...

	26-08-2005 17:10									#173
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS I read somewhere that the guy responsible for setting up the death squads in El Salvador is already in Iraq

It sounds like William Walker / Otto Reich / Orlando Bosch territory to me.

Idle speculation aside though, Zalmay Khalilzad is definitely in town, and working for an Islamic Constitution of Iraq. This would be consistent with his previous roles of building Islamism in Afghanistan and Bosnia.

What may come as a surprise to some supporters of the 'War on Terror' is that Mr Khalizad is the US Ambassador to Afghanistan and Iraq, and in the early nineties was a senior Pentagon official.

Why is a senior US Official, sometimes described as a 'Neocon', spending his career going round establishing Islamic Fundamentalism in Europe, the Middle East and Central Asia? I think we should we be told.

	26-08-2005 17:17									#174
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Basra is the British sector...

Yea, I know.

	26-08-2005 18:46									#175
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Basra is the British sector...

That was his point.

God, you really are clueless.

	26-08-2005 19:45									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That was his point. God, you really are clueless.

Really? How stupid of me to realise he was actually trying to have a dig at me and give him the benefit of the doubt...

Are you the smart one of your family?

Could it be that you are even related to Sikander...

	27-08-2005 07:55									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander They actually overextended themselves in an attempt to give ARVN the bums rush in 1972. ARVN fought a lot more proficiently than they expected and the NVA suffered such serious losses that they expected it would take a decade to recover their former strength. The attack in 1975 was their first serious operation since 1972 and had very limited objectives. Unfortunately for South Vietnam it was timed to coincide with Thieu's own crisis of confidence in the U.S. due to the radical Dems doing their utmost to cut the legs from under the regime in the south. The Vietnam war might have been lost by the South in the long run, but it was lost in 1975 because of Watergate.

Always those damn tree huggers losing wars! Now they're gonna lose this one for us too!

Bastards!

	27-08-2005 09:48									#178
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Well, I would say that a.. what is it?.. oh yes, hegemon... who loses the will to clean up it's own mess over a few thousand body bags is certainly not losing due to military defeat.

	27-08-2005 09:55									#179
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Well, I would say that a.. what is it?.. oh yes, hegemon... who loses the will to clean up it's own mess over a few thousand body bags is certainly not losing due to military defeat.

The problem is that no amount of American body bags wil clean this mess, because Iraq becoming a democracy is something completely out of the hands of Americans. Empires are easy, cause you go in for your own benefit, not someone elses. Saying that you are there to help others means that in the end, unless you are lying, its not you, but the others, that decide the outcome.

The neo-con mistake was thinking that if you go around breaking heads, people will want the US to decide everything for them. They were completely wrong.

	27-08-2005 09:57									#180
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Word

You can't WILL yourself to win the game when you didn't set it up right in the first place.

How hard you try determines the outcome much less than putting the right resources in in the first place.