27-08-2005 10:13									#181
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The problem is that no amount of American body bags wil clean this mess, because Iraq becoming a democracy is something completely out of the hands of Americans. Empires are easy, cause you go in for your own benefit, not someone elses. Saying that you are there to help others means that in the end, unless you are lying, its not you, but the others, that decide the outcome. The neo-con mistake was thinking that if you go around breaking heads, people will want the US to decide everything for them. They were completely wrong.

Actually, I think their mistake was thinking that the American population had got over Vietnam, and learned from it (jury is still out, but not looking really good).

I don't think they expected that the American public would be scared off by soldiers doing what soldiers are recruited to do.

Now, as to the wisdom of removing the regime that kept US and British military resources tied down indefinitely, the wisdom of having to maintain bases in KSA indefinitely, the wisdom of ending the regime before one of the two brats could off the old man and take over to the 'delight' of the already terrorised population... the NeoCons made a mistake in the wet dreams of rabid leftists who despise the existance of the US as a world power, let alone when the US actually does something.

	27-08-2005 10:25									#182
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Considering less than 40% of the US population disapproves of the handling of the Iraq war, it's more than just "rabid leftists" who disapprove of the action. Unless you consider Senators McCain and Lugar "rabid leftists."

Swiftboating people as having bad character or having an agenda because they disagree with something going on just doesn't work anymore.

Here' why the majority of the American population, who does disagree with the war, disagree with the war:

1) We were knowingly lied to about the reasons for entering it
2) The execution of this war has been incompetent
3) The American people are not benefiting from this war in any way shape or form. In fact it is hurting the nation. I could place about 10 subpoints under here.

There are "rabid leftists" who will always want to advance their agenda, but this is opposed by people from all walks of life.

Americans don't like the idea also that we are in another country and wrecking the place for the worse. We were told we were there to help but our presence has just turned the whole place into sh1t.

	27-08-2005 10:31									#183
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Here's a clue. You already wrecked the place. By most standards you bought it.

Now it is on you to stick around and fix it.

If you want to have discussions about being there in the first place, fine. If that helps avoid a repeat, great. However, what I hear you saying Ted, is that you want out and you want to leave the Iraqi people twisting in the wind. That I call gutless, just like it was 30 some years ago the last time your country broke it and then abandoned it.

	27-08-2005 10:40									#184
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Speaking of Swiftboating, thanks for providing a perfect example. We can also call that setting up a Strawman. We can also call it Projection. We can also call it Making Things Up. We can also call it Pulling Things Out of My Ass. We can also call it LYING.

Nice try though.

I know we are already there, dumbass. DUH.

I hold the same views that McCain and Lugar have, that we should manage the place more competently and stop trying to advance our own interests and just fix the damn place.

For example, $10 billion dollars are unaccounted for in reconstruction funds. Meanwhile Halliburton gets rich. Those jobs should be going to whatever firm can do the job best, Iraqi firms get first preference.

So go project on someone else.

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	27-08-2005 10:48									#185
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From the reaction, I gather I am hitting rather close to the nerve.

Thanks.

	27-08-2005 10:50									#186
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Not really, you can believe that if you want though.


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	27-08-2005 10:57									#187
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Here's a clue. You already wrecked the place. By most standards you bought it. Now it is on you to stick around and fix it.

You mean, install a minority dictator and leave him armed well enough to crush his people? Cause you know, that was the condition we got it in. If the idea was to "fix", then wouldn't that be it?

That is why your annalogy is dead wrong. The US went in TO BREAK IRAQ, period. The neo-cons thought they would be able to put it back together just to thier liking.

By adovcating "stay the course", or "stay and fix it" you advocate a continuance of this notion. This notion is wrong, cause it does not work that way. That is the point.

quote: That I call gutless, just like it was 30 some years ago the last time your country broke it and then abandoned it.

South Vietnam was never a real country. IN one way it is a perfect example for iraq. The North Vietnamese wanted a single unified Vietnam more than the South Vietnamese wanted a "south vietnam". guess who won? Yeah, the side that fought for the same aim non-stop for 3 decades.

When we invaded Iraq we destroyed the sad, brutal system that was there. That was fine, but the amdin. failed to provide a sfae blank slate for the inevitable suppressed problems of Iraq to have a "chance" of working themselves out peacefully. Even if the uS had fully secured Iraq, we still would have no guarantee of Iraq ending a democracy, only that far less people would have died up to THIS POINT.

In the end, fixing Iraq is a job only Iraqis can do. The Us at best can help. Sadkly, our help up to now has been crappy.

Personally, I don;t think the US should pull out. BUt I think "stay the course", or "you bought it, you fix it" are both horribly misguided ways of trying to convince the population to back such an expensive and difficult enterprise.

And they are obviously failing.

	27-08-2005 11:07									#188
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Sick 'em, Ted.

	27-08-2005 11:14									#189
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Oh damn, he threw in the obligatory 'I don't think the US should pull out, but everything they've done is ****', so I guess he's covered.

	27-08-2005 11:18									#190
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Like your troll was any less predictable.

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	27-08-2005 11:28									#191
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Would that you'd only been trolling. Would that Dailey was only trolling.

	27-08-2005 11:32									#192
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That doesn't even make sense. Try again or lay off the wine coolers lightweight.

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	27-08-2005 11:33									#193
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Talk about not making sense...

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Considering less than 40% of the US population disapproves of the handling of the Iraq war

Incidently, it's running 60% opinion to withdraw.

You are doing your part.

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	27-08-2005 11:34									#194
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NYE is speaking the truth.

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	27-08-2005 11:36									#195
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Another Strawman, but thanks for trying.

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	27-08-2005 11:36									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten NYE is speaking the truth. Thanks

"handing the war" and "withdrawing" are two different things.


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	27-08-2005 11:41									#197
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Not to you, Ted. You can dandy up your lingo anyway you like. What you amount to is a defeatest.

'OMG, we've taken casualties. It has a cost! Someone ****ed up!'

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	27-08-2005 11:43									#198
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quote: Not to you, Ted. You can dandy up your lingo anyway you like. What you amount to is a defeatest.

Yep. Ted and his ilk are the wet dream of bin Laden and every other petty tyrant.

	27-08-2005 11:46									#199
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You're hilarious. I'll play you're game. You and I both know what's going on but I'll play just for fun.

A guys wants to break down a brick wall. He starts banging his head against the wall. Of course, his head starts bleeding, his head hurts. In your world, if he wouldn't complain about the pain and would just keep hitting his head and stop being such a *****, eventually he'll break that wall down. Man up and break down that wall son!

In my world, he sees what he is doing is ridiculous so gets a sledgehammer and breaks the damn thing down already.

But keep playing up your empty projection/strawman all you want if it makes you wet your pants so much. I'll even provide the tissue and the vaseline.

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	27-08-2005 11:49									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Not to you, Ted. You can dandy up your lingo anyway you like. What you amount to is a defeatest. Yep. Ted and his ilk are the wet dream of bin Laden and every other petty tyrant.

Actually you guys are, after he suckered you into his realm where we can do fun things like have our entire military capacity tied down, with no end in sight, and spending alot of money on something that hasn't benefited the US at all.

But I hope you enjoy spending $700 billion and not getting any results.

Tell me what good has come of this war?

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	27-08-2005 11:50									#201
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Oh my. Now he is equating national policy with head banging. Perhaps one to many HM concerts? Who knows?

	27-08-2005 11:52									#202
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Can't even respond to someone else's actual argument.

I call that gutless.

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	27-08-2005 11:53									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Actually you guys are, after he suckered you into his realm where we can do fun things like have our entire military capacity tied down, with no end in sight, and spending alot of money on something that hasn't benefited the US at all. But I hope you enjoy spending $700 billion and not getting any results. Tell me what good has come of this war? Thanks

Please tell us when the no fly zones were going to end.

Please tell us when the economic sanctions were going to end. Wasn't it millions of children died due to them?

Please tell us when the bases were going to move out of the KSA.

Please tell us when Saddam's henchmen were going to stop murdering Iraqi civilians.

	27-08-2005 11:55									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Can't even respond to someone else's actual argument. I call that gutless. Thanks

Give me credit, I'm trying to find an argument. It ain't easy, but I'm trying.

	27-08-2005 11:57									#205
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Please tell me where the Weapons of Mass Destruction are.

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	27-08-2005 11:58									#206
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quote: Tell me what good has come of this war?

Saddam Hussein is gone and the Iraqis are working toward a democratic government. Teh Reagan would approve.

	27-08-2005 12:03									#207
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So instead of one ruthless *******, we now have thousands that we can't control, and now they're making the lives of the average Iraqi miserable.



And it only cost us $700 billion.

Sounds like a good deal to me.



Meanwhile there are a dozen ruthless *******s running around oppressing their people.

	27-08-2005 12:06									#208
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Forgive me, I thought the lives of the average Iraqi were less than paradise before the invasion (read above about infant deaths due to sanctions).

Seriously, how can you say this **** with a straight face?

	27-08-2005 12:08									#209
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Didn't you watch Fahrenheit 9/11, NYE? The life of the average Iraqi was great while Saddam was in charge. They were flying kites and stuff.

	27-08-2005 12:09									#210
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Damn. I missed that lecture.