04-09-2005 06:11									#181
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Here's the list of people that need to be FIRED:

FEMA Director Michael Brown
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff
President Bush

At least Bush is taking SOME responsibility and saying the response so far has been unacceptable.

These other 2 clowns are doing nothing but passing the buck.

Listen to this ******* Chertoff. What a ****ing bastard!!!

quote: Defending the U.S. government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff argued Saturday that government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur. But in fact, government officials, scientists and journalists have warned of such a scenario for years.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/ka...toff/index.html

	04-09-2005 06:17									#182
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Biggest load of crap ever. ZOMG the ultracatastrophe!

quote: "I think we have discovered over the last few days that with all the tremendous effort using the existing resources and the traditional frameworks of the National Guard, the unusual set of challenges of conducting a massive evacuation in the context of a still dangerous flood requires us to basically break the traditional model and create a new model -- one for what you might call kind of an ultracatastrophe," Chertoff said.

	04-09-2005 06:46									#183
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What I don't understand is why the NG had to be either on rescue or maintaining order. Why not both, and why weren't more Guard there sooner?

	04-09-2005 07:28									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Here's the list of people that need to be FIRED: FEMA Director Michael Brown Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff President Bush At least Bush is taking SOME responsibility and saying the response so far has been unacceptable. These other 2 clowns are doing nothing but passing the buck. Listen to this ******* Chertoff. What a ****ing bastard!!! http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/ka...toff/index.html

there is also some senators, that should ge tthe axe...

basically any from the states who weren't out there, getting help for those states..

as well as some of the rest of the nation, who would rather talk about taxes and the like, then about what was going on in our south

JM

	04-09-2005 08:19									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I don't disagree, Farb. The mayor and governor need to be held accountable. It doesn't stop there, unfortunately.

Oh, I fully agree with you, virtually everyone did mess up at some level. But the BIG BUCK stops with those two idiots.

They Mayor who knew it was coming FIVE DAYS IN ADVANCE and left those lower income citizens to fend for themselves when he could of used the city's buses to take them out.

And then forgot to tell FEMA that the Convention Center was a site for the people to head to until 3 days afterwards.


The Governor who didn't request the state be a disaster area in a timely manner and then stalled for almost two days before actually starting to send in rescue assets.

FEMA was slow but two days of that was the fault of the Governor's delay to request FEMA.

The idea to use the school buses to take people to Texas, I can almost guarantee FEMA suggested that to the Governor, I haven't seen a spark of intelligence in her that hints she could have come up with that idea.

	04-09-2005 11:32									#186
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chertoff rhymes with jerk off

	04-09-2005 11:40									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse chertoff rhymes with jerk off

Alexander's Horse rhymes with Alexander's Force.

	04-09-2005 14:56									#188
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the night they drove old dixie down...

	04-09-2005 15:18									#189
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What I don't understand is ... why weren't more Guard there sooner?

Are you ****ing serious!!???

Could it possibly be that 7,000 of them from MS and LA are currently on active duty in Iraq?

quote: "Missing the personnel is the big thing in this particular event. We need our people," said Lt. Andy Thaggard

quote: Capt. Richard Locke of the Guard's 1st Battalion 167th Infantry headed toward Mobile yesterday with a force of 400 soldiers cobbled together from four units because the rest of the battalion is in Iraq.

quote: Recruiting and retention problems are worsening the strain on Guard forces in hurricane-ravaged states. Alabama's Army National Guard has a strength of 11,000 troops -- or 78 percent of the authorized number. "We're just losing too many out the back door," Arnold said.

That one is a good quote for the draft thread...

So basically the illegal Iraq war has seriously degraded the NG's capabilities not least because a sizeable proportion of its strength is stuck thousands of miles away getting needlessly shot up - but also because states like AL are missing almost a quarter of their strength because for some wierd reason utterly beyond my comprehension US civilians don't particularly fancy getting their asses shot off in some far off desert hell-hole!

	04-09-2005 16:59									#190
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(copied from the Katherina info thread, but it seems this is a good place to place it as well)

Today on national radio an engineer from the University of Delft (civil enginering) mentioned that in the US (or in New Orleans at least) the levees are build with a risk assesment of failure of once in 30 years.

In comparison, in the Netherlands it is once in ten thousend.

	04-09-2005 17:05									#191
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Ted said:

"You Dutch need to come over here and show us how to build the damn thing properly."

Germanos said:

quote: Originally posted by germanos I'm sure we (well, the contractors for sure ) would love to. But as I understood from the guy, one of the reasons it is like this is because the Americans have a different view on the return on investment. While we can for sure build up your dykes to Dutch standards (and I´m sure you can do it yourselfs as well), it will be very difficult for us to change the American attitude on fiscal policy.

Sad but true.

Now, if someone was to sell this idea as a way of making "profit," our decision makers would be all over it.

"ZOMG the Dutch levee system will earn us 70 million a year let's get it done!!!"

For the past 25 years, anything that is built, whether public or private, has to contribute to "profitability."

But I think people are starting to get tired of this idea, and perhaps building something for the greater public good may start to earn acceptance.

I believe alot of the American infrastructure, that was built during the New Deal time, was what helped our economy propel itself into greatness after World War 2. At the time, none of those projects could be considered "profitable,." but they helped mend the American social fabric together and also contributed to a physical connecting infrastructure (roads, power plants, schools, etc).

I'd say the idea of not having a city underwater is reason enough to build the damn thing.

	04-09-2005 17:11									#192
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Well said Ted

	04-09-2005 17:36									#193
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Oh, I fully agree with you, virtually everyone did mess up at some level. But the BIG BUCK stops with those two idiots. They Mayor who knew it was coming FIVE DAYS IN ADVANCE and left those lower income citizens to fend for themselves when he could of used the city's buses to take them out.

Don't hurricanes happen EVERY YEAR ?


Isn't there a hurricane SEASON ?

	04-09-2005 17:48									#194
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Where are the libertarians? You'd have thought that they'd be thrilled to bits over the failure of 'big government' and the gun battles between residents and looters.

	04-09-2005 18:20									#195
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Ted, is there any scenario where Bush isn't to blame?

Basically if the storm had killed one person, surfing at the beach, you would still be calling for his head.

It really makes me sick how far you an MOBIUS (I expect it from him) will go for political profit.

	04-09-2005 18:44									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller could someone driving down, and getting their sunday night, be able to assist in the evac?

No. According to a Dutch TV reporter, noone is allowed into or out of the city except for rescue workers and journalists. Roads to and from the convention centre have been free for days (the guy has been travelling them daily to make his news reports) and people could walk out of the city if needed, but they're just not allowing anyone to use them. This reporter actually smuggled some of the people from the convention centre past the security forces near the convention centre and just outside of the city to get them to safety...

According to him, the law enforcement agencies still seem more concerned with the security situation in the city than with helping all those people in the convention centre.

	04-09-2005 18:47									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Ted, is there any scenario where Bush isn't to blame?

The one which doesn't involve his family bailing him out of every failed business venture and the Democrats nominating someone more interesting than a tailor's dummy for President.


Is there no aircraft carrier for Bushbaby to appear on ?

No looters he can singlehandedly disarm, no part of Louisiana he can defend from the Viet Minh ?

Either Mr Rove or Mr Cheney must be sleeping....

	04-09-2005 18:48									#198
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quote: According to him, the law enforcement agencies still seem more concerned with the security situation in the city than with helping all those people in the convention centre.

Of course that means food and water are getting to the convention center.

I was always confused when people claimed the Super Dome refugees were starving to death/dieing of thrist when from the day of the hurricane I watched blackhawks in a constant steam land on the South end unloading god knows what.

Has there yet been any instance of people starving to death, dispite the claims?

	04-09-2005 18:49									#199
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quote: The one which doesn't involve his family bailing him out of every failed business venture and the Democrats nominating someone more interesting than a tailor's dummy for President. Is there no aircraft carrier for Bushbaby to appear on ? No looters he can singlehandedly disarm, no part of Louisiana he can defend from the Viet Minh ? Either Mr Rove or Mr Cheney must be sleeping....

God that was bad.

	04-09-2005 18:52									#200
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Sooner or later, Bush is going to promise to 'find the folks that did this'.

	04-09-2005 18:58									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos God that was bad.

Of course, one must never assume that Mr. Bush or his advisors would take advantage of a national tragedy for photo opportunities.

	04-09-2005 19:06									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Of course that means food and water are getting to the convention center. I was always confused when people claimed the Super Dome refugees were starving to death/dieing of thrist when from the day of the hurricane I watched blackhawks in a constant steam land on the South end unloading god knows what. Has there yet been any instance of people starving to death, dispite the claims?

From what I've so far most of the news reportion has been 20% fact and 80% opinion thrown in. You'll have to make an effort and collect tidbits to get a better picture. I'm afraid the full facts will only become known months later, but by that time the how and why of some actions won't interest most people. Except for the lawyers perhaps.

As for the dome, there was something going there but it certainly wasn't dieing of thirst/starvation. More the walls of civilization and social order coming down.
There was a short interview with a British tourist who stayed at the Superdome who was clearly shaken about what happened there, some people commited suicide, stabbings and god knows what. The guy was in tears.

	04-09-2005 19:06									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos

Oh dear- is West Nile Fever spreading, too ?


Two photo ops for Bushbaby !!

And he could dress up in hospital uniforms too!


Praise God for Dear Leader, who could turn water into Jack Daniel's.

	04-09-2005 19:20									#205
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what I don't get is the US has been preparing for a terrorism related disaster, even a doomsday scenario like a loose nuke, since 9/11 so you would expect the response to a natural disaster would be better than ever and its not

	04-09-2005 19:59									#206
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb They Mayor who knew it was coming FIVE DAYS IN ADVANCE and left those lower income citizens to fend for themselves when he could of used the city's buses to take them out.

No one knew where Katrina would find landfall, especially not 5 days in advance. The predicted hurricane tracks are pretty good but they remain a probability calculation and hurricanes can take amazing turns. For example, Ivan was heading directly for Mississippi but made a right hand turn toward AL a day before landfall. I have to watch these tracks pretty closely. The fact that the early tracks centered around New Orleans didnt mean that it couldnt have turned directly north toward Alabama or carried on west toward Houston and Galveston. In fact, the probable landfall site 5 days prior to landfall covered most of that area, it merely centered on NO.

	04-09-2005 20:10									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse what I don't get is the US has been preparing for a terrorism related disaster, even a doomsday scenario like a loose nuke, since 9/11 so you would expect the response to a natural disaster would be better than ever and its not

I think the most telling comment I've heard was one made by Chertoff i.e. that they didnt expect the levees to break. Overflow, yes; break, no. That made all the difference as to the scope of the disaster.

Personally I think the two biggest mistakes were not providing evacuation transport for the poor and infirm all day sunday (once it was mandatory) and failing to recognize the scope of the security problem once some of the survivors recognized the absence of civil authority.

	04-09-2005 20:14									#208
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hopefully there have been some lessons learnt

	04-09-2005 20:40									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Of course that means food and water are getting to the convention center. I was always confused when people claimed the Super Dome refugees were starving to death/dieing of thrist when from the day of the hurricane I watched blackhawks in a constant steam land on the South end unloading god knows what. Has there yet been any instance of people starving to death, dispite the claims?

On Dutch radio there was a reporter at a Louisiana airport (the Louis Armstrong airport IIRC) that has been a makeshift fieldhospitel/hub for evacuees from the flooded city.
They had one room turned into a morgue and/or place for people to die (the latter was not completely clear to me, partly due to the translation in Dutch).
He spoke to a priest or reverend working there who said people were in fact dying there (and had in fact died as well), since sufficient treatment could not be provided in the dire circumstances.
Most of these dying victims were, from what I gathered from the report, evacuees from hospitals in New Orleans, so probably in a bad phisical state to start with. Still, they're dying.

The priest/reverend was quite calm, and was not laying blame on anything or anybody, he was just doing all he could for those at the airport/fieldhospital.
All in all the report sounded very genuine.

	04-09-2005 21:36									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse hopefully there have been some lessons learnt

Don't worry. Our politicians will forget them soon.