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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
You, Sava, didn't do a ****ing thing.
Considering the critisisms you have been laying down, anything short of throwing yourself into the levie break to plug the leak smacks of hipocracy. |
levee. hypocrisy.
Can I ask what you're doing? It's not like any of us can drop what we're doing and go down to NO to help out--not with every single aid agency telling us to stay away, because we'd only exacerbate the situation by getting in the way.
quote:
No, this is a thread to grow political capital of the backs of dead NO citizens. Nothing else. So I guess me saying your care for them is fained is not entirely correct, you do "care" about then a great deal. |
feigned.
We're Americans. What, we can't feel pain and grief over the people we lost to the storm just because we don't like how the situation is being handled?
Last edited by Q Cubed on 05-09-2005 at 00:07
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Alright Q,
Your post are making me see that I am doing in the opposite direction what I am accusing most posters here of doing. |
And what, pray tell, is it that you're actually doing? I thought some of the naval ships were shipping out to help--and I thought you were part of the Navy. If this is the case, why weren't you assigned to them? Is that why you have so much time to post and erect paper-thin defenses?
Not to trash you here, but your constant stream of allegations that those of us who don't think this has been handled well is based on entirely two things: 1) that we're doing this because we hate Bush, and 2) that all of us are lazy, hypocritical suckas who don't really give a damn about New Orleans or its people because we're doing jack ****.
What would you have us do? Go down to the ruins of the city, trying to help people, when all the aid organizations have told us to stay away? We could do that. Of course, if we did, not only would we be getting in the way of people better equipped, but without any organization or support structure to maintain our rescue operations, let alone the finances, we'd find ourselves in need of rescue shortly thereafter.
Is that what you want? For us to help by adding to the cluster**** that is the situation in New Orleans?
quote:
This constant exageration is just sickening, that people are using this as am oportunity to get some low punches in and then disguise it as sympathy to NO. |
exaggeration. an. And, btw, most people from the area abbreviate it NOLA.
There's no doubt that exaggeration is happening. The media will report that kind of **** because that's what keeps eyeballs.
But of course, in every exaggeration, there's a bit of truth--and in a situation like this, it's hard to know where the truth ends and fancy takes over.
Now, frankly, I don't know the complete truth of what's going on down there. Unless you're posting from the region hit by the storm, like the Gulf Sails blog, I don't think you know the complete truth either. For you to start claiming that we're the ones pulling **** out of our asses and standing there, saying everything's going fine when there is photographic proof stating otherwise...
quote:
Nothing will satisfy poly tubbies, no response of any magnitude would make them happy. |
Wrong.
I'd be satisfied if we had competent, strong leadership through this crisis. I'm not seeing any.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
No, this is a thread to grow political capital of the backs of dead NO citizens. Nothing else. So I guess me saying your care for them is fained is not entirely correct, you do "care" about then a great deal. |
No this is a thread about recognizing mistakes that can't be repeated. Ever.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Alright Q,
Your post are making me see that I am doing in the opposite direction what I am accusing most posters here of doing.
This constant exageration is just sickening, that people are using this as am oportunity to get some low punches in and then disguise it as sympathy to NO.
Nothing will satisfy poly tubbies, no response of any magnitude would make them happy. |
We have all seen plenty of hurricanes hit at times when we were not fans of the people in command of the rescue efforts and yet this is the first time I remember such widespread recognition that the response was far less efficient than usual. It's not that nothing will satisfy the critics. A lot of us usually have been satisfied with the responses to previous disasters and have even had praise for the efficency of those efforts. No. The problem is that there really has been enough screw ups and uncessary delays to make this particular entire effort by and large an embarrassment overall despite the proven competance of so many players involved on the ground.
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Sandman
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Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:32
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I've found one of those predictive articles, and damn it's a good one. At least, I think it is.
You have to read this
It's an article from 2004 about how Bush mangled FEMA with red tape, outsourcing and funding cuts. Some choice quotes:
quote:
But since 2001, key federal disaster mitigation programs, developed over many years, have been slashed and tossed aside. FEMA's Project Impact, a model mitigation program created by the Clinton administration, has been canceled outright. Federal funding of post-disaster mitigation efforts designed to protect people and property from the next disaster has been cut in half, and now, communities across the country must compete for pre-disaster mitigation dollars. |
quote:
In June, Pleasant Mann, a 16-year FEMA veteran who heads the agency's government employee union, wrote members of Congress to warn of the agency's decay. "Over the past three-and-one-half years, FEMA has gone from being a model agency to being one where funds are being misspent, employee morale has fallen, and our nation's emergency management capability is being eroded," he wrote. "Our professional staff are being systematically replaced by politically connected novices and contractors." |
quote:
In case Congress hasn't gotten the message, former FEMA director James Lee Witt recently restated it in strong terms. "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded," he testified at a March 24, 2004, hearing on Capitol Hill. "I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared. In fact one state emergency manager told me, 'It is like a stake has been driven into the heart of emergency management.'" |
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:32
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quote:
What would you have us do? Go down to the ruins of the city, trying to help people, when all the aid organizations have told us to stay away? We could do that. Of course, if we did, not only would we be getting in the way of people better equipped, but without any organization or support structure to maintain our rescue operations, let alone the finances, we'd find ourselves in need of rescue shortly thereafter. |
I made this exact point at the start of this thread, at which point I was given this..
quote:
And what, pray tell, is it that you're actually doing? I thought some of the naval ships were shipping out to help--and I thought you were part of the Navy. If this is the case, why weren't you assigned to them? Is that why you have so much time to post and erect paper-thin defenses? |
At which point I called them hypocrits.
This is the type of crap I am dealing with when critisizing someone, anyone, is more important that getting a real, logical, relative grasp of ths situation.
quote:
Now, frankly, I don't know the complete truth of what's going on down there. Unless you're posting from the region hit by the storm, like the Gulf Sails blog, I don't think you know the complete truth either. For you to start claiming that we're the ones pulling **** out of our asses and standing there, saying everything's going fine when there is photographic proof stating otherwise... |
I said things are going as well as can be expected, or should be expected, and am basically railing against the ASSUMPTIONS of others, which are all negative.
quote:
And you would never criticize your commander-in-chief no matter what the circumstances. Independent thought has been drilled out of you. |
I criticize him all the time, any one care to discuss the disbanding of the Iraqi Army?
I criticize when there is something to actually do it for, not because I can.
quote:
And what makes him a poser? That he's not on your side? Is that it? |
That he is screaming bloody murder because people have not stopped the rotation of the Earth to help out those in NO, when he has has done nothing more than anyone else.
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Guynemer
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Wrong again, hoss. Many, many, many people are doing amazing things to help the refugees.
I'm screaming bloody murder because, as is typical in our politics, no one is taking responsibility for anything that went wrong. And I am absolutely ****ing fed up with it.
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Guynemer
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I'd be absolutely ****ing thrilled if they were anywhere near "not perfect."
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
I made this exact point at the start of this thread, at which point I was given this..
At which point I called them hypocrits.
This is the type of crap I am dealing with when critisizing someone, anyone, is more important that getting a real, logical, relative grasp of ths situation. |
hypocrites.
Wrong, that's the crap you deal with when you do the exact same ****ing thing against other people. You're criticising every single person here who's been critical of the disaster management, while you yourself are doing nothing different.
Put another way: are we only allowed to criticise when we're the ones on the ground? If that's the case, then might I direct you to all the people who are actually there, handing down the complaints? How is it that almost everybody there including the ones NOT being interviewed by the mainstream media, such as those in the blogosphere (Gulf Sails Blog), are painting a picture where the Government's aid isn't being distributed well, that the disaster management isn't effective? Why is it that most of the people who are saying things are going well are politicians, or those connected with them?
quote:
I said things are going as well as can be expected, or should be expected, and am basically railing against the ASSUMPTIONS of others, which are all negative. |
The assumption is that we're in the greatest country in the world. The assumption is that while we might not have seen a disaster like this in recent memory, we're a good enough country, a bright enough country, a strong enough country, that the devolution of a city doesn't happen. Sure, we've had riots. We've had bad hurricanes. We've had major earthquakes which have crippled our infrastructure.
We haven't had a disaster were there's been a lack of leadership, where there's been a lack of genuine hope. We haven't had a disaster where people are being called "refugees" in America--it's always been "evacuees". We haven't had a disaster where the looters are, in at least one source, being called "insurgents".
This kind of **** doesn't happen in America. It can't. It shouldn't. But it has.
So pardon us critics for collectively saying, "What the ****? How the ****? Why the ****?" Pardon us for not blindly believing every single press conference the dumbasses we elect into power provide. Politicians all lie--and of course, in the interest of making things look better, appear better, which for all intents and purposes means that things are better--they're saying that everything in New Orleans is coming up just rosy.
quote:
I criticize him all the time, any one care to discuss the disbanding of the Iraqi Army? |
Irrelevant.
At least in terms of my beef with you.
quote:
That he is screaming bloody murder because people have not stopped the rotation of the Earth to help out those in NO, when he has has done nothing more than anyone else. |
What would it take for you think he's not a poser? That he actually does go out and stop the rotation of the earth?
Maybe he did have high, optimistic hopes about what could have, should have been done. What does that make you, a fatalist? A pessimist? For expecting things to be no better, in the ****ing greatest country on Earth?
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:32
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I think it's telling that Patroklos is ignoring the posts of Geronimo, who iirc is also a military man and quite well known as someone who supports Bush.
You honestly can't say that the response to this has been faultless. Or that an unacceptable number of mistakes haven't been made. I don't think many people are blaming Bush solely, though some of his policies will affected the ability of the country to deal with, but all in all the leadership from mayor, through governor, to senators, heads of FEMA or Homeland Security and yes maybe even Bush has been lacking.
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:32
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quote:
Wrong, that's the crap you deal with when you do the exact same ****ing thing against other people. You're criticising every single person here who's been critical of the disaster management, while you yourself are doing nothing different. |
Its called feeding them their own logic, which undermined their original position, which was to the tune that we should have flooded the place with 1 million troops.
quote:
So pardon us critics for collectively saying, "What the ****? How the ****? Why the ****?" Pardon us for not blindly believing every single press conference the dumbasses we elect into power provide. Politicians all lie--and of course, in the interest of making things look better, appear better, which for all intents and purposes means that things are better--they're saying that everything in New Orleans is coming up just rosy. |
I haven't done this, but apparently while it is a crime against humanity to believe your talking heads, it is perfectly alright to outright assume them to be liers all the time without any reason to do so. That was a poor retort.
quote:
What would it take for you think he's not a poser? That he actually does go out and stop the rotation of the earth? |
Considering the level of his attacks against others, anything less than taking out a 100,000 dollar loan, selling his house and belongings, and sending that money to the Red Cross, and then throwing himself with MOBIUS into the levee breach to stop the waters might make him not a poser.
His unrealistic and illogical demands for the relief effort can similarly be turned onto him.
Or he could apply a little common sense to his demands, and I would not consider him a hypocrite for his contributions. Rather, I would consider him to be a normal person contributing what should be expected of him.
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:32
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quote:
You honestly can't say that the response to this has been faultless. Or that an unacceptable number of mistakes haven't been made. I don't think many people are blaming Bush solely, though some of his policies will affected the ability of the country to deal with, but all in all the leadership from mayor, through governor, to senators, heads of FEMA or Homeland Security and yes maybe even Bush has been lacking. |
Geronimo has said nothing unique that my other posts do not address.
Perhaps you should read the thread title, and then the thread, and then tell me who Che, Agathon, Sava, MOBIUS, and a host of others hold responsible.
quote:
You honestly can't say that the response to this has been faultless. Or that an unacceptable number of mistakes haven't been made. |
Have made no such claim, ANYWHERE, and I do not fing the number of mistakes to be acceptable, but rather expected for this occurance.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Perhaps you should read the thread title, and then the thread, and then tell me who Che, Agathon, Sava, MOBIUS, and a host of others hold responsible. |
Speaking for myself alone, if you'd paid any attention instead of rushing to give Bush a hummer, you would know that I hold all levels of government responsible for the collosal cluster **** this is.
Unlike you, I am actually well aware of how quickly the Feds can come in. My state got clobbered by four major hurricanes last year. The Feds and state were Johnny on the spot. We were hammered, in the space of two months with four monster storms. My friends in Orlando got hit with three of them!
As soon as the storm was over the Feds were there.
Do I expect the same level of service for those in Biloxi and NOLA. Damn straight I do! They may take longer to get results, given the level of devestation, but there is no good reason why people had to wait so long for food, water, and rescue.
That you keep saying that what's happening is as good as can be expected either means you are completely clueless or you are a flaming liar.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Geronimo has said nothing unique that my other posts do not address.
Perhaps you should read the thread title, and then the thread, and then tell me who Che, Agathon, Sava, MOBIUS, and a host of others hold responsible.
Have made no such claim, ANYWHERE, and I do not fing the number of mistakes to be acceptable, but rather expected for this occurance. |
I hold everyone from the Mayor up responsible to varying degrees of incompetence - but the person with the ultimate power is Bush...
I am not just out for Bush (though I feel he and his administration deserve the lion's share), I am also particularly pissed about the fact that the poor were not evacuated in the first place - and that is not Bush's fault!
So **** you for putting words in my mouth through your total inabilty to actually understand what people on this forum are talking about...
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:32
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Pah, for the last 6 or 7 pages it's only been a very few people that blame Bush directly. I mean a lot of this would've happened with Kerry or Clinton in power as well. Bush just does not seem to projecting th needed leaderhip at the moment, and in a way I don't think he really cares, and resents it distracting from iraq (though i guess it hid those 1000 Shias that died on pilgrimage last week quite well).
I don't think I've ever been an out and out Bush basher. I disagree with some of his policies, fair enough, but as I am not a US citizen all but a few (Kyoto, Iraq) do not affect me. You can trust me though that if Blair and the ministers responsible for these things would ever screw up like that in England they'd be out on their ear before you know. In fact the labour MPs would probably happily vote along with a vote of no confidence. Whereas the US seems to have turned into a personality cult surrounding the glorious leader, making him out like he's better than others, and that he's above fault. TBH it surprises me that there aren't statues of him springing up all around the US...
/rant and hyperbole off
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Its called feeding them their own logic, which undermined their original position, which was to the tune that we should have flooded the place with 1 million troops. |
It's.
And that would help... how? Frankly, while that might have been the position of some of the people here, it wasn't mine. It wasn't any of the people I know IRL. All of them aren't complaining that there's a lack of military presence; no, they're complaining that it doesn't look like anything we're doing is really helping, mostly because it doesn't look like we're doing anything well.
Don't put words into my mouth, don't assign positions to me that I don't ascribe to.
quote:
I haven't done this, but apparently while it is a crime against humanity to believe your talking heads, it is perfectly alright to outright assume them to be liers all the time without any reason to do so. That was a poor retort. |
liars.
Why should we trust our talking heads? And since when did I even suggest it was even tantamount to a crime against humanity? Must you trivialize crimes against humanity?
No, Patroklos, the reason why you don't trust talking heads is because everybody lies. It doesn't matter why they do it, but they will. True, it's not a pleasant aspect of humanity, and quite a pessimistic view.
Here's why I think they're going to be lying about the full scope: their jobs are on the line. Their asses, figuratively speaking, are being held over the crucible of a disaster of such a scope that it's shocking and painful for America to see. They know that unless they manage some hail mary pass, they're ****ed; indeed, with the current chaos, no matter how it all gets resolved, the first week of Katrina and NOLA will be remembered as one of error after error, anarchy, and exacerbating conditions, when everything just broke down. (When our technology works, it works wonderfully. When it breaks, it breaks horribly. We're seeing that now.)
Nagin's probably exaggerating quite a bit--his beautiful city's in ruins; born and raised there, it's probably not something he ever wanted to see. So naturally, he's going to want to paint an apocalyptic picture so more aid can be brought quicker, and faster.
Landrieux, the Governor, Congress, and Bush all probably want to paint a picture that's a lot less devastating. Why? Because no matter how you cut it, we've lost a city. That does NOT look good on a resume, and it sure as hell doesn't endear you to the people. They want us to think that things are going as best as they can, not so much for themselves directly, but for themselves indirectly. All the agencies and departments involved are, in one way or another, a reflection on the current leadership--and if they look bad, they make those in power look bad. It's why the few bad apples in Abu Ghraib make the whole Army look like monsters, when it's very clear it's really... just a few bad apples. It's why when FEMA can't get its **** together, it makes Bush's appointee, Brown, look like an incompetent ****wit, and Bush like an idiot for trusting him with something like FEMA.
This is why they're going to lie. The truth is never going to be what they say on tv, it's never going to be what they give to the media.
And hell, there's always the basic, intelligent position of questioning everything, approaching everything from a mildly skeptic point of view. If you question everything, you can peel away the layers of deceit and more closely approach the truth. At least, that's what I picked up from my education--which, alas, was at one of those silly liberal universities (aside from the econ and poli sci departments).
I'm sorry if you thought my belief that they'd be untrustworthy on air was unfounded. It wasn't.
Please. Your reply was hardly a rebuttal at all.
quote:
Considering the level of his attacks against others...His unrealistic and illogical demands for the relief effort can similarly be turned onto him...Or he could apply a little common sense to his demands, and I would not consider him a hypocrite for his contributions. Rather, I would consider him to be a normal person contributing what should be expected of him. |
Fair enough--I honestly haven't been paying that close attention to the pissing match you and Guy have been having; the only reason I was even on your case was from what parts I saw, it seemed to be a rather illogical case of you going after one guy with very little rationale.
Last edited by Q Cubed on 05-09-2005 at 01:30
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Guynemer
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Exactly what part of my "demands" are unrealistic, Pat?
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05-09-2005 00:01
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