03-09-2005 00:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Tingkai: re: bush's statements. Is this true? Seriously? I mean, ****, we're getting offers from the EU, Korea, Japan, and a host of less well-off-nations, like the Dominican Republic.

I misstated his response. What Bush said is: "I’m not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn’t asked for it."

Which is still a slap in the face of American allies. His attitude is that other countries won't help unless they are asked, when in fact, many countries immediately offered help. I know Canada is willing to help. We don't care who is in the White House, we just want to offer whatever support our neighbours need.

	03-09-2005 00:27									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber That's pretty much what everyone is saying. I just don't see why everyone has to get hung up on the fact that the goverment is moving as slow as it usually does. That has pretty much been my experience in everything the federal goverment is involved in. When I'm in a disaster like that I'm not going to expect the feds to help me. Local resuce workers and the kindness of those around me are the only thing I expect for a long time. The fed is a lumbering giant that takes it's sweet time doing anything. Rapid and federal (unless it's fedex )just don't belong in the same sentence. I know that they could if they planned correctly but I have yet to see any instance from any time where the federal goverment did anything fast.

I think you underestimate what your government can do.

The U.S. reacted incredibly quickly to the tsunami disaster, and my hats off to them for doing so. A U.S. Navy task force was diverted to Singapore. They bought the supplies they needed and were soon off the western Indonesian coast. Thousands of Indonesians owe their lives to the quick response of the U.S. Navy.

That's what's so annoying about what is happening now. Why is it that the U.S. can respond quickly to a crisis oveseas, but can't deal with a crisis at home?

One possible explanation is that Navy commanders are trained to make independent decisions. What's happening now seems to be a lot of people running around looking for someone to take charge.

	03-09-2005 00:27									#33
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Pekka, please, everybody knows both Mark and David are lousy lovers, both of them having been circumcised.

===

Tingkai: I'll agree, that's probably not the best response; he should know better, what with the unrequested but general outpouring of support the whole world gave in the wake of previous disasters, not just in the US. It mystifies me.

	03-09-2005 00:38									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I think you underestimate what your government can do. The U.S. reacted incredibly quickly to the tsunami disaster, and my hats off to them for doing so. A U.S. Navy task force was diverted to Singapore. They bought the supplies they needed and were soon off the western Indonesian coast. Thousands of Indonesians owe their lives to the quick response of the U.S. Navy.

I'm not going by what they can do, I'm going by what they have done in the past. I included in my post that it was within their capability to respond quicker but they have never done so. Your wanting to bash Bush which is fine if that's what you like to do but all I'm saying is that if I'm in a disaster like that I'm looking toward the locals for help. If they don't have their **** together, the feds won't be there in force for about a week.

	03-09-2005 00:43									#35
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Tingkai,

You are blind. The US military was providing aid before the damn thing even hit. The day of the hurricane the Army Corps of Engineers was running all over the place. The fact there there are several major military bases IN the disaster zone makes you claim ridiculous.

The USS Battan arrived the day of the hurricane and has been running helos non stop since. The day after the USS Shreavport and USS Ashland headed down. Those three ships are equal to three airports with 5000 aid workers each, also loaded out with food (I was berthed across from the Shreveport, it was ALOT of stuff). There are now seven Navy ships off the coast.

The day of the storm Bush dispatched a Lt. General to hed up the relief efforts, and from all accounts he has been kicking ass and taking names since then. There are over 10,000 soldiers involved in ground operations.

There are over 200 military helicopters operating in NO. Note there are over 50 news choppers flying around doing nothing.

And of course the fact that 90% of the people in this devastated region are evacuated and cared for, what failure do you speak of anyways?

	03-09-2005 00:45									#36
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Hmm... well, I suppose we could always look on the brighter side of things: It could be worse. New Orleans could have been washed out to sea.

	03-09-2005 00:50									#37
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I'm not sure if Bush should be blamed for the "too little, too late" claims, as I believe the government agencies should have authority to act on their own to a great extent. (I'm not sure about the legal issues here, though.)

But all I've been hearing from the US military servicemen and cheerleaders here on 'Poly in the last year are things like:

- We have the best logistics of any army in the world (Yeah, right, why then do people pass out from thirst even in the government sponsored refugee camps?)
- Our navy has an incredible freshwater production capacity (see above)
- We are the richest country in the world (Ok, so funding of the rescue would not be a problem then)

On the other hand, the evacuate orders saved 100 000's of lifes and the politicians who issued them deserves a medal for that decision alone, despite some other failures. But they should have mobilised the National Guard already on Sunday (Don't know if they actually did, forgive me if I'm wrong here. I know those orders take a while to implement.) And all the military units not stationed abroad should had prepared for the rescue operation alreayd in sunday. All empty military barracks should be prepared to house refugees. But to my knowledge, nothing of that happened until Tuesday or Wednesday, if at all.

And why not use goverment resuorses to help evacuate old/disabled/poor/stubborn people BEFORE the storm? Ride police cars down every suburb street with speakers on the roof, calling out orders to go to the closest school/church/whatever, where buses would pick them up within a certain deadline. Getting to Superdome 10-30 miles away by foot or public transportation was probably impossible for most of them.

The only significant divergence from the worst nightmare scenario (New Orleans will be erased from earth), that was predicted in the news already on Sunday, was the fact that the wind peaks and flooding did not co-incide in time. The winds came on Monday and the Noah flood on Tuesday. But the worst nighmare scenario DID come true, and it was all in the news 1-2 days before it happened.

But then again, give me one disaster, anywhere in the world, ever, where the government have done everything right?

	03-09-2005 00:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I'm not going by what they can do, I'm going by what they have done in the past.

I've given an example of what your country has done in the past.

The USS Abraham Lincoln was off the coast of Indonesia on Dec. 30, four days after the tsunami hit. So in the past, your government has responded quickly to a crisis, and in ways that no other country could respond. ( And the current crisis makes the U.S. Navy's response in Indonesia even more amazing).

Doesn't it bug you that your country cannot help your neighbors the way that it can help people in other countries?

Maybe it doesn't, but if I was an American, I'd be pissed off. I wouldn't accept any lame ass excuses.

	03-09-2005 00:56									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos --- There are over 200 military helicopters operating in NO. Note there are over 50 news choppers flying around doing nothing. ---

If I was a reporter flying in a news helicopter covering this event, I would spend a few hundred dollars of my private or corporate money (whatever my boss allows) to fill the chopper with bottled water and drop it to people on roof tops, who are too many for a news chopper to even try to evacuate, anyway.

	03-09-2005 01:00									#40
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quote: If I was a reporter flying in a news helicopter covering this event, I would spend a few hundred dollars of my private or corporate money (whatever my boss allows) to fill the chopper with bottled water and drop it to people on roof tops, who are too many for a news chopper to even try to evacuate, anyway.

Too bad your not a reporter. As it is, they are far to busy endlessly repeating themselves and making sure everyone notices they are there to actually help. I am sure you could fit one or too refugees in a news chopper. Not like there are not plenty of places to land with all those elevated highways everywhere.

It just goes to show how it is far easier, and politically expediant, to be critics of those helping than to bother with the truth.

	03-09-2005 01:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Tingkai, You are blind. The US military was providing aid before the damn thing even hit.

Hold on, dude. In no way am I criticizing the U.S. military here. If it wasn't for them, there would be a hell of a lot more people dead.

The problem is a lack of leadership at the top. I suspect that the military could do a lot more, but the troops can't more unless they receive orders. Some have been told to help, other have not. The mayor of New Orleans is calling for more help and he is not getting it. That's not the fault of the military. My bet is that there are military units chomping at the bit to help out, but they can't go without orders.

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos The day of the storm Bush dispatched a Lt. General to hed up the relief efforts, and from all accounts he has been kicking ass and taking names since then.

Yup, the mayor of New Orleans is saying this guy is doing a great job and should be put in charge.

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos And of course the fact that 90% of the people in this devastated region are evacuated and cared for, what failure do you speak of anyways?

They weren't evacuated. They were told to leave and those who could did.

But a lot of people were left behind. The sick and disabled had no way of getting out on their own. No help was provided to them.

Many of the poor didn't have any money because it was the end of the month and their welfare cheques wouldn't come until Sept. 1 when it was too late for them to get away.

These people were abandoned.

There was simply no evacuation. It was simply get out if you can, and if you can't, you're screwed.

	03-09-2005 01:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Too bad your not a reporter. As it is, they are far to busy endlessly repeating themselves and making sure everyone notices they are there to actually help. I am sure you could fit one or too refugees in a news chopper. Not like there are not plenty of places to land with all those elevated highways everywhere. It just goes to show how it is far easier, and politically expediant, to be critics of those helping than to bother with the truth.

The reporters are driving in their own cars or catching rides on the few empty planes heading in to pick up people. It is much easier to get in, then to get out.

I've covered minor disasters and it is difficult to go in and then realize there is no way to help people. What can one person with a pen and paper do? What journalists can do is tell people about what is happening, the problems and the chaos.

If it wasn't for the reporters on the ground, people wouldn't know about the problems. We would just have the government line that everything is running smoothly.

	03-09-2005 01:09									#43
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quote: On the other hand, the evacuate orders saved 100 000's of lifes and the politicians who issued them deserves a medal for that decision alone, despite some other failures. But they should have mobilised the National Guard already on Sunday (Don't know if they actually did, forgive me if I'm wrong here. I know those orders take a while to implement.) And all the military units not stationed abroad should had prepared for the rescue operation alreayd in sunday. All empty military barracks should be prepared to house refugees. But to my knowledge, nothing of that happened until Tuesday or Wednesday, if at all.

You are wrong, on all accounts.

If you can find me a military barracks not filled with 17-18 year old E-1 to E-3s, be my guest.

quote: The USS Abraham Lincoln was off the coast of Indonesia on Dec. 30, four days after the tsunami hit. So in the past, your government has responded quickly to a crisis, and in ways that no other country could respond. ( And the current crisis makes the U.S. Navy's response in Indonesia even more amazing).

You will note that the Abraham Lincohn did not "respond" to the tsunami, it was already there on its way to deployment. And while I doubt you know this, the Baatan is a far better equiped ship to respond to a disaster like this. A carrier houses airplanes. This particular amphib is designed to house 3000 marines for extended periods of time.

And we are not in the habit of having battle groups deployed in the Gulf of Mexico. Not that it matters, it would have moved out of the way of the hurricane itself anyways.

quote: Maybe it doesn't, but if I was an American, I'd be pissed off. I wouldn't accept any lame ass excuses.

If you expect the impossible, you should not be at all suprised when it doesn't happen.

I suspect the only thing that would make you happy is if we had a full spare uninhabited metropolis somewhere, and transporters to instantly zap every victim instantaneously to a new, better, house with a hot dinner waiting for them at the table.

	03-09-2005 01:12									#44
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quote: I've covered minor disasters and it is difficult to go in and then realize there is no way to help people. What can one person with a pen and paper do? What journalists can do is tell people about what is happening, the problems and the chaos.

Apparently what they can do is exagerate everything possible, be critics of EVERYTHING, and have their makeup perfect in the middle of a hurricane.

But they were there, first on the scene, and for some reason that counts for something?

	03-09-2005 01:15									#45
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quote: You are wrong, on all accounts.

ALL accounts? I still think the major did the right thing when he issued the evacuation order, but that's just me. If all military units were deployed on Sunday, how come you are still posting here, all day long? Shouldn't you be involved in the rescue operations?

quote: If you can find me a military barracks not filled with 17-18 year old E-1 to E-3s, be my guest.

Ideally, the barracks would be empty anyway, as the kids would be involved in the rescue operations. And when it's over, the kids could sleep in tents for a while. Nothing wrong with that, it would give them some field experience and make them better prepared for times of war. Better give the barracks with beds, showers and cantinas to people who need it more.

	03-09-2005 01:15									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos You will note that the Abraham Lincohn did not "respond" to the tsunami, it was already there on its way to deployment.

No, on the day of the tsumani, the Lincoln task force crew were on R and R in Hong Kong, hundreds of miles from the disaster zone. They had no relief supplies; they were equipped for war.

The task force sailed to Singapore where they went out and bought relief supplies and then went to help Indonesia.

I thought you were in the navy. Why is it that you're minimizing the incredible job that the U.S. navy did? I can tell you that people in Asia have a lot of respect and admiration for what the U.S. navy did.

	03-09-2005 01:19									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Apparently what they can do is exagerate everything possible, be critics of EVERYTHING, and have their makeup perfect in the middle of a hurricane. But they were there, first on the scene, and for some reason that counts for something?

Exaggerate? What proof do you have of that? None. The reporters are telling it as they see it. The fact is that more than 25,000 people were left behind. The fact is that the response has been slow. The fact is that there were solutions that could have been applied to help. Republicans and Democrats agree on that.

And dude, I said it before and I guess I have to say it again. i'm not criticizing the military response. What I'm saying is that there has been a major failure at the top.

	03-09-2005 01:20									#48
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quote: No, on the day of the tsumani, the Lincoln task force crew were on R and R in Hong Kong, hundreds of miles from the disaster zone. They had no relief supplies; they were equipped for war.

No, what I said was that they were on their way to deployment, which is what happened. Hundreds of miles is nothing to the Navy.

quote: I thought you were in the navy. Why is it that you're minimizing the incredible job that the U.S. navy did?

What I said does not minimize anything, it is lucky they were there. I do however believe in telling the truth, unexaggerated.

quote: Ideally, the barracks would be empty anyway, as the kids would be involved in the rescue operations. And when it's over, the kids could sleep in tents for a while. Nothing wrong with that, it would give them some field experience and make them better prepared for times of war.

What exactly would flooding the region with several hundred thousand peole untrained to deal with this do for those people in NO? My Disbursing Clerks are great guys, but besides standing around with the already 1000s of arrived aid workers who are unable to gain access to the city center, they would just get in the way.

	03-09-2005 01:25									#49
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quote: Exaggerate? What proof do you have of that?

Anyone who turned on the TV un aquainted with the situation right now would have no recourse but to assume the 7th seal has been broken, the fourth horsemen is on his way, and that the Moon will turn blood red tonight.

Incidently, the story of 1 million+ evacuated and cared for LA and MS citizens is apparently too mundane to report. No ratings. The fact that people are in fact not starving to death also too mundane. The fact that the entire city of New Orleans is NOT under water, also not worth it.

quote: And dude, I said it before and I guess I have to say it again. i'm not criticizing the military response. What I'm saying is that there has been a major failure at the top.

The caveat being that you think the miltary could have done more if ordered to.

	03-09-2005 01:28									#50
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Too bad the state and local people were also sitting on their collective asses.

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	03-09-2005 01:31									#51
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Man, this is funny.

The Lincoln task force was about 1,500 miles away from Indonesia. In four days they were on site ready to provide aid. That ain't no small accomplishment and it sure the hell ain't luck. It's skill.

As for flooding the region with troops, no one is asking for hundreds of thousands of troops, but 10,000 would have made a difference.

Besides, there was no need to rely on barracks. Aircraft hangers could have been used to provide shelter. Tents could have been flown into an air base and quickly set up. The military has mobile kitchens, shelters, laterines, etc that could have been flown into the closest air base that was not hit by the strom.

A lot could have been done if the U.S. military had been given the order to help in whatever way it could.

	03-09-2005 01:33									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos What exactly would flooding the region with several hundred thousand peole untrained to deal with this do for those people in NO? My Disbursing Clerks are great guys, but besides standing around with the already 1000s of arrived aid workers who are unable to gain access to the city center, they would just get in the way.

Militaries normally don't train for situations like this, but they are ordered to help out anyway, as they are strong, fit and have nothing better to do. 1000's of healthy kids in humvees, trucks, buses, rubber boats, helicopters, whatever you have in your "world-leading logistics capacity" would make a huge difference, carrying old people onto buses or handing out water rations or whatever manual labour that needs to be done. And they have rifles and body armour to protect themselves agains looters and hobby snipers, so that would not be an issue.

	03-09-2005 01:37									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Anyone who turned on the TV un aquainted with the situation right now would have no recourse but to assume the 7th seal has been broken, the fourth horsemen is on his way, and that the Moon will turn blood red tonight.

People in the Superdome were forced to stay there. No food, no water, no facilities. They were left to the prey of criminals who were raping people. The authorities were no where to be seen. Buildings were set afire. People were firing guns. Criminal gangs were looting stores. Law abiding citizens were forced to break the law just to survive. The sick and disabled were abandoned. Women who just gave birth were kicked out of hospitals and separated from their children. Hospitals ran out of supplies and had no way to care for the ill. People were stranded on rooftops for days on end.

But you know the truth and everything is wonderful, eh.

	03-09-2005 01:39									#54
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quote: Militaries normally don't train for situations like this, but they are ordered to help out anyway, as they are strong, fit and have nothing better to do. 1000's of healthy kids in humvees, trucks, buses, rubber boats, helicopters, whatever you have in your "world-leading logistics capacity" would make a huge difference, carrying old people onto buses or handing out water rations or whatever manual labour that needs to be done. And they have rifles and body armour to protect themselves agains looters and hobby snipers, so that would not be an issue.

If you don't mind all your relief supplies being eaten by a flood of relief workers not actually releiving anything. There is little access to the regions where these workers of needed. You guys do understand there is flooding right. There are already 1000s sitting around on the outskirts of the devastating doing what they can, but obviously not what their potential is becuase THEY CANT GET THERE!!!

quote: whatever you have in your "world-leading logistics capacity"

Set up to do what there job is, which is not this. Give us a week and we could flood the place with all sorts of crap, mostly military related with no useful purpose in NO, and again on the outskirts BECAUSE THERE IS NO ACCESS TO THE WORST AREAS, tipified the fact that they are the worst areas, no access is why they are that way.

	03-09-2005 01:42									#55
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quote: But you know the truth and everything is wonderful, eh.

Everything you just said is the reason it is a disaster. That is what happens in a disaster. That these things happen in a disaster, because it is a disaster, has nothing to do with whether the response is moving as fast as can reasonably be expected.

Like I said earlier, you have impossible expectations, so are naturally disappinted.

	03-09-2005 01:43									#56
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quote: You guys do understand there is flooding right. There are already 1000s sitting around on the outskirts of the devastating doing what they can, but obviously not what their potential is becuase THEY CANT GET THERE!!!

Massive flooding was expected already on Sunday, 2 days before it was a fact. There are many ways for logistics organisations to overcome flooding, like rubber boats, helicopters, parachute supply drops and whatever.

The government should sieze/purchase all rubber boats in the region, apart from the ones the military already have in their own stores.

	03-09-2005 01:44									#57
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Actually, I'm a pessimist. You're absolutely right, Patroklos--the response has been damn near miraculous, because I wasn't expecting anybody in the country to give a damn about a third-rate city.

	03-09-2005 01:45									#58
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I don't want anynone to think that I don't think this is a huge mess.

I just think the response is on par with what an reasonable expectation could have been.

	03-09-2005 01:54									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I don't want anynone to think that I don't think this is a huge mess. I just think the response is on par with what an reasonable expectation could have been.

I'm not saying nothing is done etc. I'm saying it's too little, too late, but it's not necessarily Bush's fault (see my loooooong post 1-2 hours ago).

But I'm curious why your ship is not deployed and sailing at full speed towards the area, or if not, most manpower at your base flied in to help. (or perhaps it is, you tell me).

	03-09-2005 01:56									#60
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Honestly, Patroklos, with the way that you're saying things, it most certainly does sound like you're downplaying everything, as if these are no more than a small shame.

That's not to say that it's unlikely that there's exaggeration going on here (there probably is), it's just that hewing to what Bush and co. are saying when people on the ground and in various blogs are contradicting them... is quite suspicious.