12-09-2005 13:42									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So, it's seems Tubes' wifie is a commie. Ehhhhxcellent.

Us commies are the only people in touch with reality

	12-09-2005 14:47									#62
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Poor is when you can't pay all your bills.

Like Donald Trump once couldn't?

	12-09-2005 16:20									#63
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion What I want to know is this: a man is in the hospital and needs expensive surgery to survive. He doesn't have the funds to pay for it. What do they do with him? Throw him out? Let him die on the bed?

It's all God's will:

quote: " Thou art very poor: who made thee so ? If thine own negligence, laziness, improvidence, unthriftiness, rash engagements, thou hadst reason to bear that burthen which thou hast pulled upon thine own shoulders...If the mere oppression and injury of others, thou shalt the more comfortably run away with this cross, because thine own hand hath not been guilty of imposing it. "

Bishop J. Hall 'The Balm of Gilead'

Unsurprisingly, he was a bishop of Calvinist sympathies.

Thankfully his was not the only point of view, but it was certainly a popular one in Puritan America and in England of the Reformation and after, and Calvinist Scotland.

quote: "Men are so busy examining the poor about their estate and their desert, that they can find no leisure to open their purses or relieve their wants."

Robert Allen, 'The Odorifferous Garden of Charity', publ. 1603

No change there, then.

If anyone is interested in how the working poor survive, then I can recommend Barbara Ehrenreich's 'Nickel and Dimed':

quote: Millions of Americans work for poverty-level wages, and one day Barbara Ehrenreich decided to join them. She was inspired in part by the rhetoric surrounding welfare reform, which promised that any job equals a better life. But how can anyone survive, let alone prosper, on $6 to $7 an hour? To find out, Ehrenreich moved from Florida to Maine to Minnesota, taking the cheapest lodgings available and accepting work as a waitress, hotel maid, house cleaner, nursing-home aide, and Wal-Mart salesperson. She soon discovered that even the "lowliest" occupations require exhausting mental and physical efforts. And one job is not enough; you need at least two if you intend to live indoors. 'Nickel and Dimed' reveals low-wage America in all its tenacity, anxiety, and surprising generosity -- a land of Big Boxes, fast food, and a thousand desperate strategies for survival. Instantly acclaimed for its insight, humor, and passion, this book is changing the way America perceives its working poor.

http://www.nickelanddimed.net/

	12-09-2005 23:40									#64
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quote: To find out, Ehrenreich moved from Florida to Maine to Minnesota, taking the cheapest lodgings available and accepting work as a waitress, hotel maid, house cleaner, nursing-home aide, and Wal-Mart salesperson. She soon discovered that even the "lowliest" occupations require exhausting mental and physical efforts. And one job is not enough; you need at least two if you intend to live indoors.

Most jobs have exhausting and physical efforts. This is not new. Now granted the foodworker and housekeeper are not paid as well as ur dr or dentist, but they both do the same if not more work. Though i see this comparison as apples and oranges truth be known the same amount of time and effort is going into the work and task at hand. If you ask me this country spends way to much money on fantasy and tv land. Were the hell was it written the athletes and movie stars should make millions for entertainment purpose. You have folks working their asses off for minimum wage and have the sports stars and movie folks demanding 30 million for one film and or one season How insane is this??? I will tell you very, cause it is you the consumer that pays that salary, and continue to allow this insanity by continuing to pay the outrageous prices for movie tickets and tickets to the shows etc.

	12-09-2005 23:53									#65
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Ironically though its the entertainment industry that keeps the US from sinking into complete third world status, as almost all other industries are uncompetitive without subsidies.

It too is unsustainable, since US consumption is fueled by money borrowed from exporting countries so we can buy more of their exports.

A small scale analogy would be a bar that lets customers run up a tab so they can keep giving the bar business. Deadbeat customers eventually get banned from the bar. Likewise, cheap Chinese merchandise in Walmarts probably won't be cheap thirty years from now when the Chinese domestic market is big enough to eat up all the demand.

	12-09-2005 23:54									#66
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion What I want to know is this: a man is in the hospital and needs expensive surgery to survive. He doesn't have the funds to pay for it. What do they do with him? Throw him out? Let him die on the bed?

I guess I'll find out when the time comes....

	13-09-2005 00:35									#67
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion What I want to know is this: a man is in the hospital and needs expensive surgery to survive. He doesn't have the funds to pay for it. What do they do with him? Throw him out? Let him die on the bed?

There are way to many solutions to this. First you try to exhaust all possibilties for payment. Social services for the hospital gets invloved. The goverment is broguht into play for medicaid or medicare. to help with the costs. I am not saying that it doesnt happen, but it is very rare that a person is brought in to a hospital that is left to die cause they cannot pay.
There are surgeons that have to take these cases and do the procedure even if they will not be paid for it. Drs do not work like lawyers. Most lawyers have a choice to to do pro bono cases, most physicians do not have the luxury. In complete answer the patient will be taken care of and not left to die.

	13-09-2005 00:39									#68
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Transplants are a bit different, The procedures ae much more expensive and more involved. There are a lot of trusts that are involved that are available to help a patient with costs if the only match is for a person with no insurance. By this time that a transplant is needed there is already some type of goverment insurance in place. The healthcare workers will not allow a good organ that was donated to be wasted because the reciepent cannot pay.

	13-09-2005 01:27									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley A small scale analogy would be a bar that lets customers run up a tab so they can keep giving the bar business. Deadbeat customers eventually get banned from the bar. Likewise, cheap Chinese merchandise in Walmarts probably won't be cheap thirty years from now when the Chinese domestic market is big enough to eat up all the demand.

while we simply can not keep this up, there is no way the Chinese home market will be able to absorb their production. I was listening to a Nucor guy on C-Span eariler a few days ago talking about how China was projected to have triple the current world excess steel capacity in the next 5 years.

	13-09-2005 01:42									#70
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USA currently uses 25% of world's resources and has about 300 million people.

China has 4 times the number of people who want to live like Americans.

	13-09-2005 01:50									#71
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Live like Americans? Surely they want to be Americans!

	13-09-2005 05:10									#72
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quote: The poverty rate is always a trailing indicator at the beginning of an economic expansion...

Lol. It's also a leading indicator of a country in decline. So what?

The poverty rate has risen for four straight years, yet as I recall you have been touting the economic expansion for all of that time. How far behind does this "trailing indicator" follow? A decade? Two? If you ask me, it looks more like a counter-indicator---- at least for Bush's economic policies.

In fact, the rise in the poverty rate is largely a direct result of the Republican party's deficit financed tax cuts for the wealthy. This "policy" (I hardly dare dignify it with the term) is nothing more than a transfer of wealth from the middle class to the rich. Which drives some of the middle class into poverty, thus increasing the poverty rate.

Eventually it will destroy the middle class and consequently the US economy. But that probably won't happen until Bush is out of office and can blame it on someone else. And you, no doubt, will be there to help him do it.

	13-09-2005 11:42									#73
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American notions of "poverty" disgust me. You guys have no clue what poverty is.

	13-09-2005 11:45									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Us commies are the only people in touch with reality

I'm not sure who lives in Plato's Cave of ignorance -- communists, or capitalists.

	13-09-2005 11:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Live like Americans? Surely they want to be Americans!

Really not that many people want to be Usians.

	13-09-2005 12:01									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha while we simply can not keep this up, there is no way the Chinese home market will be able to absorb their production.

The production will inevitably shift to another country. I reckon the low tech light industries, textiles, etc., will be the first to go, to places such as India, Bangladesh and Nigeria. Then it will be the low tech heavy industries such as steel. Industries such as raw material extraction will probably go relatively quickly too.

quote: Originally posted by Whoha I was listening to a Nucor guy on C-Span eariler a few days ago talking about how China was projected to have triple the current world excess steel capacity in the next 5 years.

I think he's silly.

	13-09-2005 12:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski quote: To find out, Ehrenreich moved from Florida to Maine to Minnesota, taking the cheapest lodgings available and accepting work as a waitress, hotel maid, house cleaner, nursing-home aide, and Wal-Mart salesperson. She soon discovered that even the "lowliest" occupations require exhausting mental and physical efforts. And one job is not enough; you need at least two if you intend to live indoors. Most jobs have exhausting and physical efforts. This is not new. Now granted the foodworker and housekeeper are not paid as well as ur dr or dentist, but they both do the same if not more work. Though i see this comparison as apples and oranges truth be known the same amount of time and effort is going into the work and task at hand. If you ask me this country spends way to much money on fantasy and tv land. Were the hell was it written the athletes and movie stars should make millions for entertainment purpose. You have folks working their asses off for minimum wage and have the sports stars and movie folks demanding 30 million for one film and or one season How insane is this??? I will tell you very, cause it is you the consumer that pays that salary, and continue to allow this insanity by continuing to pay the outrageous prices for movie tickets and tickets to the shows etc.

YEP

We got our priority system all screwed up. NO athelete or movie star deserves $30 million for what they do.

That is an abuse of the "virtuous" free market system. The sad thing is most of us will continue supporting these abuses.

	13-09-2005 12:04									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Ironically though its the entertainment industry that keeps the US from sinking into complete third world status, as almost all other industries are uncompetitive without subsidies.

I reckon the US still has some first class industries such as semiconductors and banking.

	13-09-2005 12:04									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Vanguard Lol. It's also a leading indicator of a country in decline. So what? The poverty rate has risen for four straight years, yet as I recall you have been touting the economic expansion for all of that time. How far behind does this "trailing indicator" follow? A decade? Two? If you ask me, it looks more like a counter-indicator---- at least for Bush's economic policies. In fact, the rise in the poverty rate is largely a direct result of the Republican party's deficit financed tax cuts for the wealthy. This "policy" (I hardly dare dignify it with the term) is nothing more than a transfer of wealth from the middle class to the rich. Which drives some of the middle class into poverty, thus increasing the poverty rate. Eventually it will destroy the middle class and consequently the US economy. But that probably won't happen until Bush is out of office and can blame it on someone else. And you, no doubt, will be there to help him do it.

Word

Tax cuts for the rich.

	13-09-2005 12:06									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Saras American notions of "poverty" disgust me. You guys have no clue what poverty is.

Maybe you should try living in one of those impoverished areas and tell us who has no clue then?

	13-09-2005 13:02									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Maybe you should try living in one of those impoverished areas and tell us who has no clue then?

Cry me a river.

	13-09-2005 14:10									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Yep, DanS would post a thread every month at the beginning of the month, titled "Let the Good Times Roll: X number of jobs created in (name of month)". This month has been the first in a while where there has been no such thread, though I did start a differently titled other thread

So, given recent events, who's the *******?

	13-09-2005 14:14									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ell_man The text book is, " History of the American Economy 10th edition" by Gary M Walton and Hugh Rockoff.

Eventually I want to read a book about the American economic history. Would you recommend this one?

	13-09-2005 14:18									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's the table. http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/pove...d/thresh04.html $9,645 for one person in a household up to $39,048 for 9. All public assistance, Social Security, etc. counts toward this figure. Capital gains don't count toward it.

Do RRSP (retirement fund) funds count towards that?

How many of the recently retired, but well off, fall into the poverty category?

	13-09-2005 14:35									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Most jobs have exhausting and physical efforts. This is not new.

Manual jobs- not most white collar clerical jobs.

Unless you consider commuting to work on public transport exhausting- all those poor people, the smell, the noise, my dear !

quote: American notions of "poverty" disgust me. You guys have no clue what poverty is.

Saras


Well, those of us who haven't been to the developing world can have little experience of absolute poverty- states where there is no safety net of any kind, where if you don't beg or receive charity the consequences can be starvation.

But poverty is relative- as a society develops, certainly as the United Kingdom has changed, the definition of poverty changes too. We no longer have a humiliating stringent means test, most houses have indoor plumbing, a great many have central heating, and yet rickets made a return during Margaret Thatcher's period in power.

And to be fair I'd say that news footage Louisiana showed there is a whole side of the United States that's left out of Disneyland and Disneyworld experiences, and that instead makes its appearances on true-life American cop shows and 'Jerry Springer', complete with bad dentition, obesity and hand-me-down clothes.

And it's no longer British and American children being killed in the workplace, cleaning cotton looms or being stuck in chimney flues, but economic migrant Chinese workers, drowning in the sea off Morecambe, or Russian or Asian women being trafficked across Europe as sex slaves.

Who could have guessed that the brave new world of the 21st Century would have seen a return to the sale of human beings for sex on a gobal scale ?

	13-09-2005 16:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Cry me a river.

Sorry stud, you have absolutley no idea what you're talking about.

Of course, you can cry a river for the poor of New Orleans, since, well their city is flooded in a toxic river and now they have nothing.

Thanks CEO

	13-09-2005 16:13									#87
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Manual jobs- not most white collar clerical jobs. Unless you consider commuting to work on public transport exhausting- all those poor people, the smell, the noise, my dear ! Saras Well, those of us who haven't been to the developing world can have little experience of absolute poverty- states where there is no safety net of any kind, where if you don't beg or receive charity the consequences can be starvation. But poverty is relative- as a society develops, certainly as the United Kingdom has changed, the definition of poverty changes too. We no longer have a humiliating stringent means test, most houses have indoor plumbing, a great many have central heating, and yet rickets made a return during Margaret Thatcher's period in power. And to be fair I'd say that news footage Louisiana showed there is a whole side of the United States that's left out of Disneyland and Disneyworld experiences, and that instead makes its appearances on true-life American cop shows and 'Jerry Springer', complete with bad dentition, obesity and hand-me-down clothes. And it's no longer British and American children being killed in the workplace, cleaning cotton looms or being stuck in chimney flues, but economic migrant Chinese workers, drowning in the sea off Morecambe, or Russian or Asian women being trafficked across Europe as sex slaves. Who could have guessed that the brave new world of the 21st Century would have seen a return to the sale of human beings for sex on a gobal scale ?

Good post.

	13-09-2005 17:41									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Of course, you can cry a river for the poor of New Orleans, since, well their city is flooded in a toxic river and now they have nothing.

wow. this should make me feel guilty now?

	13-09-2005 18:00									#89
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Poverty is relative to society I agree, but eventually there has to be a realistic definition of "poor."

So that in America you can be poorer that some, but not poor. We simply need to freeze the poverty line, though it is conforting that Teds numbers are increasing not because people's income is going down, but because the poverty line is going up to adjust for overall prosperity.

I also think that millionares should be taken out of the figuring of the poverty line. If a stock broker rakes in another 25 mil this year and the everyone else stays the same, the poverty line goes up making previous middile class people now "poor" though their actual means have not changed.

	13-09-2005 18:03									#90
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And you will note Ted, though it doesn't help your rant, that their are myraid middle class people that are completely wiped out to. In a disaster like this, laying waste to everything, your going to get ****ed up no matter what your means.

Though obviously the more money you have the larger the disaster has to be to do this to you.