04-10-2001 05:08									#301
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Turks 20
Arabs 20
Spanish 20
Mongols 15
Vikings 15
Inca 10
Maya 10
Sioux 10
Celts 10

	04-10-2001 10:41									#302
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Poles 20

	04-10-2001 10:52									#303
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Poles 20

	04-10-2001 13:30									#304
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vote for polish!!!!!!

hey and I was thinking there are now polish here

yeah breaking enigma defetaing krzyrzacy... and Adrzej Lepper from Samoobrona [ok ok that was joke...]

	04-10-2001 15:45									#305
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I dont know the rules to much...
oki everything on Poland

mayby some for mongols

to polish posters: JEST OK! mówią o nas kamikaze ale jest ok

POLSKA GOLA POLSKA GOLA TAKA JEST KIBICÓw WOLA!
no dobra to nie było na temat...


ok maybe celts? but I must know good the rules first

	04-10-2001 16:09									#306
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As far as a next update goes, you guys will have to wait for that until after the weekend since I don't have time today and I'll be out of town all weekend, starting tomorrow (there goes my CivTrivia score ).

As far as the Polish 'invasion' goes, your explanation is much appreciated, LoD, it explains a lot. Of course I don't mind people promoting this thread to Civ3 fans outside Apolyton (heck, I thought it was cool to see my name in a Polish text ), but I'm not sure if I'm extremely happy with the way in which you promoted it. Of course I don't speak Polish but from what I can see you explicitly tell people to come to this thread, press the reply button, type "Poles 20" in the reply window and hit 'submit reply'. As I don't speak Polish and don't know what you tell in the rest of the text I don't want to jump to conclusions but this smells a bit like (intended or unintended) manipulation to me. I can understand why you do it (and I don't really blame you for doing it) - this way people who don't or hardly speak English can also vote - but I think it would be much better if you would just encourage people to "vote" or to "vote for your favourite civs (for example Poland)", but not to encourage them to "vote for only Poland" or anything like that.

If people have a problem with voting in English, I speak many languages, they can vote in German, French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Greek or whatever as well, even in Polish if they don't speak any other language (if I can't figure out what they mean, I could ask one of the Polish guys around here to translate for me or I could go to the library and look it up in a dictionary). I prefer people to vote in English but failing that I'd much rather have them vote in Polish for their own choices than to vote just for Poland in English because they weren't aware there were any other options...

Of course, I'm not just talking about LoD's Polish website here, if anyone else wants to promote this thread to Civ3 fans outside Apolyton that's fine with me but please just encourage people to vote (in any language), not to vote for any particular civ(s). Of course, you can suggest certain choices, we all do this all the time here in this forum, but I would much appreciate it if you didn't 'enforce' them in any way.

	04-10-2001 16:26									#307
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Fatty: You're quite welcome, since it's a fact, whether you like it or not . That "Enigma" movie is a historical blunder (I especially dislike an idea that a Polish officer could even think about betraying the Allies for revenge ), and got quite a couple of people protesting against it, including Norman Davies.

	04-10-2001 16:36									#308
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Mankind: Wszystkie zasady dokladnie wyjasnilem w tekscieApelu, wiec radze go dokladnie przeczytac.

Apel (znowu ) do wszystkich Polaków - do argumentacji na rzecz Polski sluzy watek "Why Poland SHOULD be included in one of the official sets" a nie ten. Nie dezorganizujcie pracy Locutus'owi!!!


Locutus: You probably mean this line:

6. W pole Your Reply wpisujesz "Poles 20" i ewentualnie inne cywilizacje (zgodnie z zasadami które opisałem w poprzedniej wiadomo¶ci - patrz wyżej).

TRANSLATION:

6. In the Your Reply field write "Poles 20" and optionally other civs (according to the rules I described in the previous post - see above).

I assure you, I don't use communist methods such as "gather all the people in the village, transport them to the voting commision, and tell them who to vote for >>or else<<" .

(Edit): And the whole step-by-step instruction is only appendix to the actuall "manifesto", added because some people had problems with posting their choices.

LoD

Last edited by LoD on 04-10-2001 at 17:42

	04-10-2001 17:37									#309
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ok sorry locutus I can speak english so i'll be speaking english
sorry again...

i'm making my choices now...

Poles 20
Mongols 20
Celts 20
vikings 20
carthage 20
arabs 20
spanish 20
mayas 20

oh and sorry again


and LoD thanx 4 help

Last edited by Mankind on 04-10-2001 at 18:03

	04-10-2001 20:17									#310
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Staszek Polynesians +20

I voted for the Polynesians too, and thanks to the fans of Poland they aren´t in the top 16 anymore. But thanks for voting for them, Staszek.

IMO, Southeast Asia / Australia / Oceania should be represented by at least one of 32 civs.

	04-10-2001 20:32									#311
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Tomasz Wysocki tries to vote twice for the Poles. NONE of hiis votes should count!!!!

	04-10-2001 20:44									#312
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Gramphos: I would me more careful in your judgements if I were you. That's probably a double post. The guy posted once, didn't see the "Thank you for your post" message (probably due to reload times - modem connections in Poland can be very slow at times), assumed it wasn't posted, and posted again. Simple as that.
BTW, two words - presume innocence.

LoD

	04-10-2001 21:17									#313
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Here is me selection

Poles 20
Irish 15

And that's all folks

see you

	04-10-2001 21:32									#314
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quote: Originally posted by LoD Gramphos: I would me more careful in your judgements if I were you. That's probably a double post. The guy posted once, didn't see the "Thank you for your post" message (probably due to reload times - modem connections in Poland can be very slow at times), assumed it wasn't posted, and posted again. Simple as that. BTW, two words - presume innocence. LoD

With different subjects?
OK, I was overreacting. Hadn't eaten anything for 7 hours.

	04-10-2001 21:40									#315
	Remove this text

Gramphos: Yes, with different subjects, that's what I meant - he had rewriten the message. Hapened to me a couple of times throughout my forum career.

And once you get your hands on something mangeable - bon apetit .

	04-10-2001 22:04									#316
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quote: modem connections in Poland can be very slow at times

yes this is unfortunetly true

the good about it is i changed my provider yesterday and don't have dial up


1. o and we're making votes and DaGame is not even realesed
2. ...but its ok they probobly realese it [expansion pack]
not to say quick .....not slow?
they want $ and we want the game

but this been off topic again

	04-10-2001 22:43									#317
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Not bothering to read the whole thread, too damn much there.

1.Spain (20) Glaring omission, only a misinformed fool would think differently
2.Mongols (20) See above
3.Sumerians (20) Babylon comes milliena after them, they are not the same. This was where civilization was born.
4.Ethiopia (20) True civilization of Black Africa, unlike the historically insignificant Zulus
5.Inca (20) Largest empire in the America before the coming of Spain
6.Goths (20) Representing all the Germanic tribes that crushed the Roman empire (Huns, Visigoths, Vandals, Franks ECT)
7.Holy Roman Empire (20) From Chalemagne to Franz II, one of the largest and most influencial political units in European history
8. Scandanavia (20) Representing Vikings, Danes, Swedes, Finns, Norwegans, ECT. They really founded the great cities of Russia, and deserve their do.

	04-10-2001 23:21									#318
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I know it is not on topic again but...
Chris62 large number of posts but ... maybe read it? the hole "polen thingy" maybe you will be lol-ing trust me -I don't planned to read the hole thread too

	05-10-2001 00:54									#319
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LoD,
Thanks for the translation, I guess that's okay then. Actually, it was that line combined with the fact that an awful lot of these Polish posters voted "Poles 20", nothing more, nothing less. I still think it's odd but there's certainly nothing illegitimate or about it.

Don't worry Gramphos, even if someone would vote twice with 100 posts between it I would still spot it, I check all usernames. DLs and namechanges are the only things I can think of that might allow someone to vote several times...

BTW, when I come back from my little trip next week I'll post the first expansion pack 'Civs of the week' (Spanish and Mongol) as well, with a short history of those civs and some other info that might be useful for Firaxis. They're already done (or at least to such an extend that they can be posted) but I think it might be useful if I'm actually present when these things are discussed and need to be defended or corrected or whatever

	05-10-2001 01:07									#320
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Glad to have the matter resolved .

(edit): Oh, and have a pleasing trip Locutus!

	05-10-2001 01:08									#321
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Okay, I overreacted. I've done that sort of thing also (hit back-button right after I clicked the post reply) Now I've eaten som food and I realize what a monster I was . I know that Locutus keeps good trac on everything. He must have som database of some sort.

Epansion pack 'Civs of the Week' - COOL!

	05-10-2001 01:29									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos He must have som database of some sort.

Actually, a whole set of databases: a text file to keep track of all the votes and updates, a file to store a copy of my first post (in case the thread gets messed up again) and some other important misc info (such as statistics), a html file to get the layout part correct, a script file to automatically do most of the layouting, an excel file to do the calculations... I would be lost without all those

Thanks LoD, I'm sure I will, I understand Berlin is lovely this time of the year (if weather permits)...

	05-10-2001 01:32									#323
	Enigma outrage Suffering from ads?

Here's what Microsoft Encarta has to say on the subject:

quote: Enigma Code, device, developed by the German military intelligence, whereby information could be electromagnetically encrypted. The Enigma machine, as it was known, was commercially available in Europe during the 1920s. German military intelligence developed the machine from 1926; by increasing the possible number of settings on the machine's revolving wheels, a virtually unbreakable code was created. Germany used the Enigma code to coordinate strategy during World War II and the possible 150 million variations led British intelligence, in 1939, to set up the top-secret "Ultra" project, devoted to breaking the code. A team of mathematicians and cryptographers, led by William Winterbotham of MI6, cracked the ciphers and at the height of the war the Allies were intercepting and deciphering 2,000 German signals daily. Even so, Ultra's work remained frantic because the Germans continued to change the settings of their Enigma machine wheels, often every 24 hours. Still, Germany's belief in the code's infallibility enabled the Allies to intercept information which was crucial to the success of the Allied landing in the Normandy campaign.

Source: http://encarta.msn.co.uk/find/Conci...527c69e766f1131

No mention of any Poles there
I can see why films would make stuff up but Encarta is a reputable global enclyopedia and is not going to just make up things like that (particularly since its American).

Okay, I've had a conversation with a knowledgeable friend of mind and I think I've discovered where the confusion lies:

ben, is it true that the Poles broke the enigma code?
the poles managed to decode some messages that were made under the simpler enigma code
they then sent that info to GCHQ who (with turing etc) broke the cipher itself
and the shark code (I think it's called)
[snip]
so do you think its fair to say "the poles broke the enigma code" or not?
it's not fair or correct to say it
they gave the information that started the ball rolling though

Hope that clears it up!

	05-10-2001 01:55									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Actually, a whole set of databases: a text file to keep track of all the votes and updates, a file to store a copy of my first post (in case the thread gets messed up again) and some other important misc info (such as statistics), a html file to get the layout part correct, a script file to automatically do most of the layouting, an excel file to do the calculations... I would be lost without all those

As you have a script file, could you modify it to include percentages for the next update?
That would be really cool.

	05-10-2001 02:52									#325
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Actually, I only use the script file for layouting (and not even all of it). When I started this all I considered writing a small VB program to do *all* the work automatically but I figured the thread would never last more than 2 weeks and it wouldn't be worth the effort. Boy, do I regret that now

You mean percentage of total amount of points given to each civ? I considered that a long time ago but it was a meaningless statistic as all civs we so close together. I just did some calculations though and discovered that the Mongols (#1) now have about 8% of the votes and the Byzantines (#16) about 1.7%, that might indeed make percentages an interesting statistic. If I can find an easy way of calculating and layouting them I'll certainly add them but I'm not promising anything...

	05-10-2001 03:03									#326
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I'm writing this post because I've heard that many people think Poland is small and ignoble nation or even don't know that such a nation exists. Did they forget who won in 1410 in a great battle near Grunwald?! Or that in 1683 Austrians begged for help from Poles when Turks almost captured Wien! In 1920 Poles stopped Red Army marching towards Western Europe! And in 1989 Poles
began anti-communist revolution!
Poland of course isn't the most important nation in the world, but it had a big influence on history that is why it should be included in Civ3!

Poland 20
Spain 20
Austrian Empire 20
Irish 15
Swiss 15
Czech 20
Ukraine 10
Tunisia 10
Arabia 10
Cartagena 20

	05-10-2001 03:48									#327
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quote: IMO, Southeast Asia / Australia / Oceania should be represented by at least one of 32 civs.

Well lockstep, i'm voting for the Thais myself, and many people are voting for the Khmers.

As for the Poles, here's a cool map to show you the times when Poland was a major world power:

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm

	05-10-2001 04:31									#328
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No one as far as I know has said outright that the Poles were unimportant. I think what a lot of us think, is that it's not one of the 32 most important civs ever. If you want to see a humongous thread on why a civ should be included, look for the Korean thread started by Yin26. If the Poland thread can do what it's done here, imagine what that Korean thread could do...

	05-10-2001 09:04									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus point there. I've changed it now. Lumpkin, Relax, it's okay! If you had looked a little closer you might have noticed that my previous update included all votes up to eXimius and you voted after him(/her). The update I posted just now includes your vote too and (somewhat reluctantly) I added the Fatty Lumpkins as well...

HEY!!

You shouldn't let other people put in silly civs when you denied me my original silly civs (kittycats, poodles, Washington Redskins, and Northwestern Wildcats). You need to hold the line on silliness or the whole list will get clogged with the GPs and equivalent.

Oh and I still have 4 points...don't I??

	05-10-2001 13:25									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Naphta I'm writing this post because I've heard that many people think Poland is small and ignoble nation or even don't know that such a nation exists.

Naphta, all Apolytonians know Poland very well. Everybody read the thread "why Poland SHOULD be included in one of the official sets". All of the facts you mentioned are there.

PS: Locutus, you are doing great job! I'm waiting for your
"Civ of the week"