08-06-2002 23:06									#121
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quote: A very improtant part of the game is options.Take Regular CTP of example. If player1 uses Theo and player2 uses Monarchy the result is player1 winnner! My point they both could be used if they were a little more balanced.( Theo...more war discontent?weaker units? less gold bonus? or Monarchy with better gold or even much cheaper(lower production for faster building) knights? Do you want to give players options or just have one government route?

I see what you mean, and I would like feudalism to be a plausible choice. At present it's main advantages are:

Martial law
Better military / faster changes between alert statuses
Lower empire size unhappiness
Lower too-many-cities coefficient

These, however, don't come into play much at the very start of the game. It's supposed to be a government for middling-sized civs at war, but I think I'll probably have to increase its production coefficient for it to be useful. Then you can switch in and build a lot of units, and bring your forces to readiness quickly but you pay the price of a lower science/gold rate. How does that sound?

quote: Yeah I am not saying change this yet but I want you to think about this- You put in more city improvements but you have lowered trade values and no markets(banks coast more to up keep, and you have to build them sooner and in more cities to make gold), so I really do not want to hurt my science or start losing gold so I do not even bother building very many buildings.

Hmm.. I see what you mean. I didn't want to have markets because then there would be too many gold improvements, but perhaps I could include them and then make them obsolete later (when supermarkets are available, for instance).

quote: Ok lets say 3 civ in this world(this is just what I see at the start) 1 in moslty jungle 2 mostly forest 3 mostly plains/ mountains.

quote: Ok you said the simple solution would be to mine the plains/w mine (F=5 P=15 G=5) now compare that to jungle(F=10 P=20 G=5).

When you put it like that it does look silly. Jungle shouldn't be better than mined plains... I think jungle production must go down to 15, certainly, and maybe 10. How about plains 5/10/0, forest 10/10/0 and jungle 10/10/5 - would that be better? And the plains person can mine & farm to help.

quote: I think a good way to balance things out would be to make it easier to travel across plains(Yeah I know it is, but is it really!?). I mean most units(most important-Settler) can still only walk one step on plains as jungle or forest . If only Civ3 could travel faster without spending too much production they could travel to some better land (say jungle).

Well, that would mean either
a) making plains movement 0.5 but I think that's too drastic (imagine what other units would be like...),
b) making roads cheaper - which is certainly possible or
c) giving settlers 2 movement - that's a big break with tradition, but it might work...

quote: hehe I was not real sure about that yet.

I can always change it back

quote: Once again do we really want to limit players option?

See above

quote: perhaps a bit strong Not Tested Yet.

Well, I copied that straight out of the MedMod unchanged, but it might well be that it's different in this situation. I personally don't think it'll be too drastic because you don't really want to waste your population wandering around the map all the time, and small cities grow faster than large ones but we'll see what happens.

quote: Ok but maybe you should wait a little.

Probably a good idea, actually. We can just imagine I've made the changes. I think the whole terrain thing is the most urgent since that drastically affects everything else.

quote: quote: I'd like to try to get an internet game of this working. Interested? Yes VERY much.

Well, name your time - I'm free 24/7.

	09-06-2002 11:05									#122
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Well I am free tomorrow around 1800 -6 gmt

	09-06-2002 13:33									#123
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So that would be 0100 BST? Could you just post saying what time it is at the time you post so that I can tell how our clocks differ - I have big problems working these things out .

	09-06-2002 15:32									#124
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OK, I think I now see why you wanted my to post the terrain values. It does help to see tham all together.

Current values on the left, proposed on the right.
The ones with a * have changed.

code:
	Current				Proposed		
Terrain	Food	Prod	Gold		Food	Prod	Gold
Jungle	10	20	5	*	10	10	5
Forest	10	20	0	*	10	10	0
Plains	5	10	0		5	10	0
Grass	10	5	0		10	5	0
Swamp	5	5	0		5	5	0
Fines	0	5	0	*	0	5	5
Moutain	0	20	5		0	20	5
Fines M	0	20	5		0	20	5
Arctc M	0	20	0		0	20	0
Hills	5	10	5		5	10	5
Fines H	0	10	5		0	10	5
Arctc H	0	10	5	*	0	10	0
Tundra	0	5	0		0	5	0
Glacier	0	0	0		0	0	0

	10-06-2002 03:32									#125
	Update v1.10 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sorry for chain-posting, but I decided to upload the latest version (including the terrain changes above). Available at my home page at:

http://www.geocities.com/jbtwuk/civctp.htm

as before. If you're updating from version 1.02 (the last version) then you'll need to download the text and pic zips, but the others have not changed. You can also (optionally) download the tile zip which includes my first attempt at some Mars-like terrain (essentially I just made the desert terrains more Mars-coloured, nothing exciting - in the end I was unable to use IW's Mars terrain due to the big change from CTP to CTP2 in the tile files).

Changes in this version:

Edited some of the text messages which were innaccurate.
Changed the wonder messageicon to be a picture of Mars, rather than Earth.
Changed the riot messageicon to be a yellow riot hand.
Removed SETTLE_LAND flag from rover.
Reduced defense of rover 4->1 and of ranger 4->2.
Increased cost of rover 250->300
Evened out some of the terrain values.
Changed some terrain appearance. Fines are now Mars-coloured.

	10-06-2002 07:37									#126
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ok umm..my idea about terain is giving each something that can be done to make them strong. Mountains are very strong prod ,grassland high growth, jungle/forest are good all around but cant really improve with tarraform easy. I think just a few things should be adjusted. I say leave production vaules the same but take away the gold vaule for jungle,increase goods back to 10 or add markets or more trade routes to each city(I see you made government with more cities anyway) and decrease the production time of caravvans(I like this idea).As far as grassland and plains go, decrease the work points for roads and farms a small bit, Increase roads for jungle/forest(can you do that?)back to 200 and last I would increase farm food value by 5 on each(and add 5 more production to grassland/plains from a mine).
Fix: I think one thing wrong with ctp is the abilty to kick units out of groups.I mean how is one soilder going to run around a settler's armed gaurds without a fight! Can you fix that?

	10-06-2002 07:39									#127
	Put an end to popups!

My time now is 9:40 PM

	10-06-2002 15:55									#128
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quote: Originally posted by drAgON1 I think just a few things should be adjusted. I say leave production vaules the same but take away the gold vaule for jungle,

I want jungle to be different from forest though, and preferably better than forest.If we're going to add markets then I could decrease the gold income to 3 (or 2?).

quote: increase goods back to 10 or add markets or more trade routes to each city

I think of those I'd prefer to add markets. Get them with trade, they're obsolete with plastics.

quote: decrease the production time of caravvans(I like this idea).

Yes - since trade goods are worth less caravans should be cheaper. That makes sense. Changed caravans 750->500, freights 300->250.

quote: As far as grassland and plains go, decrease the work points for roads and farms a small bit, Increase roads for jungle/forest(can you do that?)back to 200

Probably a good idea. But I'll have to think a bit before I change it since it will probably mean changing the cost of railroads, advanced farms, etc. as well so that things balance.

quote: and last I would increase farm food value by 5 on each(and add 5 more production to grassland/plains from a mine).

That's pretty drastic.. I think I'll hold out for playtesting before I change that, especially if they're going to be cheaper to build too. Though I admit it is a long way to advanced mines, so it might be warranted. Perhaps an increase by 2 or 3 - you don't have to have everything in multiples of 5. I don't think these mines should be as good as those on hills.

quote: Fix: I think one thing wrong with ctp is the abilty to kick units out of groups.I mean how is one soilder going to run around a settler's armed gaurds without a fight! Can you fix that?

No, unfortunately, that's here to stay . Did you know that it's even possible to expel units that are inside enemy cities ! (So I'm told, I've never actually done it). I think the only solution to this is just to agree not to do it.

I think it would probably help to play on more diverse and drier maps - that way there is less jungle, and what there is would be spread around. I intended jungle to be fairly rare, and spread about. I could change the values in the terrain generator to make it less common, but I don't really understand that yet.

Thanks for the time check. 1800 should have been 0000 then. I thik you were getting confused about the times on Apolyton - they say they're GMT but they're not - they're BST (=GMT - 1, or maybe +1). I stayed up until 0120 but then I got too tired . The next evening you're free post here or e-mail me at jjb48@cam.ac.uk and I'll respond if I'm still awake.

Now I've got a lot of great library entries to update...

	10-06-2002 16:48									#129
	Put an end to popups!

J:
I want jungle to be different from forest though, and preferably better than forest.If we're going to add markets then I could decrease the gold income to 3 (or 2?)

Yeah I see that you want jungle better..however the gold is very powerful to give away.Lets compare your jungle to a hill. Jungle f=10 P=20 G=5, Hill F=5 P=10 G=5.
Can you see how much they limit hills in the other 2? Gold is very powerfull in ctp.Proposal: I say try jungle F=10 P=20 G=0(not over 2 if you insist) and forest F=5 P=20 G=0.The whole point I am trying to tell you is :if jungle gives as much gold as goods then you take away a very important part of ctp. A main reason nations go to war is over resoures(goods in ctp) to get more GOLD. Of course trade is still important in you scenario but that will be much later in the game. I am just trying to balance out the start of most games. If one civ starts in the middle of jungle and the other does not then jungle civ will have a huge advantage. Ctp makes you work to earn your gold, and I like that I mean I agree that trade should be adjusted down some. But if you look at hills or mountains you have to give up alot of food for that gold.

J:
I think of those I'd prefer to add markets. Get them with trade, they're obsolete with plastics.

Good Idea: I think that if your trying to limit the tech rate by limiting gold you should increase the science points not limiting gold.

J:
Probably a good idea. But I'll have to think a bit before I change it since it will probably mean changing the cost of railroads, advanced farms, etc. as well so that things balance

Not really a big deal now...All I think is the work points on the jungle should be 200. I would not decrease or increase the roads(45) or the farms(150) on plains.

J:
That's pretty drastic.. I think I'll hold out for playtesting before I change that, especially if they're going to be cheaper to build too. Though I admit it is a long way to advanced mines, so it might be warranted. Perhaps an increase by 2 or 3 - you don't have to have everything in multiples of 5. I don't think these mines should be as good as those on hills.

Yip your right about the that! Plains should not be good as hills/w mines. I did not really think. However, to make REGULAR farms usefull they should be increased to add 10 food.Trust me

J:
I think it would probably help to play on more diverse and drier maps - that way there is less jungle, and what there is would be spread around. I intended jungle to be fairly rare, and spread about. I could change the values in the terrain generator to make it less common, but I don't really understand that yet.

Naaa....Dont go changing that. Lets just work with the jungle vaules.

Ok its alomst 7am isnt that -6 gmt???? ,anyway I can play teast online now if your around

	10-06-2002 22:53									#130
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by drAgON1 The whole point I am trying to tell you is :if jungle gives as much gold as goods then you take away a very important part of ctp. A main reason nations go to war is over resoures(goods in ctp) to get more GOLD. Of course trade is still important in you scenario but that will be much later in the game. I am just trying to balance out the start of most games. If one civ starts in the middle of jungle and the other does not then jungle civ will have a huge advantage. Ctp makes you work to earn your gold, and I like that

OK, I'm getting the picture now, I think. Jungle shall have no gold! I'll try forest 5/20/0 and jungle 10/20/0 as you suggested in the game. I'm still a little worried that this will give too much production, but I'll trust your instincts.

quote: All I think is the work points on the jungle should be 200.

200 on forest as well? What about the time taken to build - I think that should be 3 turns, not 2 now that I compare it with other terrains. If I were to increase time to 3 turns do you think 200 would be too much?

quote: However, to make REGULAR farms usefull they should be increased to add 10 food.Trust me

OK, I'll change this - but do you think I should increase the benefit from advanced & hydroponic farms too by 5 each? You'll be able to get pretty big cities, especially if you use cattle too - but that's not a bad thing.

	11-06-2002 00:39									#131
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Hello,
With the roads on forest/jungle, I think they should be set to 200 but lets just wait untill futher play testing(What where you talking about 2 to 3 turns?). I think we need to add five food to just the regular farms for now. This will help balance out a civ stuck with plains/grassland.
Anyway I will be free to test in about 7 and 1/2 hours from now and again in 26 hours.

	11-06-2002 01:15									#132
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quote: Originally posted by drAgON1 With the roads on forest/jungle, I think they should be set to 200 but lets just wait untill futher play testing

OK, I won't change it yet.

quote: (What where you talking about 2 to 3 turns?)

I was considering increasing the time it takes to build roads on jungle from 2 to 3 turns. At present you can build road in 2 turns on everything but mountains (which takes 4) and I was thinking it might be a good idea to make roads take longer to build in forest/jungle. Just an idea.

quote: I think we need to add five food to just the regular farms for now. This will help balance out a civ stuck with plains/grassland.

Will do. But what happens to the poor forest players? They have production, but little food so they can't grow fast enough for the settlers. I guess they just build silos and cut rations, since they can afford to lower the workday.

	11-06-2002 01:27									#133
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Yeah that sounds good with the road time to 3 on jungle/forest . Perhaps the way to balance out the forest folks is to A) Leave the roads cheap enough to build easy so they can walk to better land or B) Have the tarraforming option so they change the woods to grassland/plains kinda early and perhaps make that a little cheaper.

Anyhow I think the next step is to change that jungle and forest then playtest,playtest, and more playtest.

	11-06-2002 02:11									#134
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quote: Originally posted by drAgON1 Anyhow I think the next step is to change that jungle and forest then playtest,playtest, and more playtest.

Made those changes, I'm now adding a market improvement (I'd forgotten how complicated it was to add an improvement, but I think I'm doing it right...).

	14-06-2002 03:20									#135
	Update v1.11 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

New version with the changes we discussed, and some other bugfixes for little things I found in testing. As usual, go to:

http://www.geocities.com/jbtwuk/civctp.htm

If updating from v1.10 you need download only the text zip. This update contains some changes to the GL, and you will only see these if - after you unzip - you copy the most recently modified files (those changed in the last week or so) from ...\scenarios\Mars\english\gamedata\gl\ to ...\ctp_data\english\gamedata\gl\

Changes in this version:

Caravan cost 750->500, freight 300->250.
Added Market improvement.
On grassland/plains/fines:
- Farms bonus food 5->10.
Jungles to F10/P20/G0.
Forests to F5/P20/G0.
Fixed bug related to Green Revolution pic.
Changed Martian Curriculum pic.
Corrected the time at which the obscelesence of city walls message appears.

Now it's time for some more testing

	14-06-2002 17:35									#136
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Dragon: I'm very sorry - I just realized I haven't thanked you yet for all your help. I really am very very grateful indeed . Blame my discourtesy on my sleepiness - I'd only slept 4 hours in the previous 40 .

I was taking notes and these were the bugs I have written down:

The whole unit/improvemnet dissapearing from build queues thing.
Changes to Arctic hills / mtns
Can't build road till you have more PW than necessary
Settler adding to cities doesn't work for non-host

Did I miss anything, and have you any other comments?

Thanks again.

	15-06-2002 14:05									#137
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quote: I just realized I haven't thanked you yet for all your help

Hey J, its no problem I enjoy trying to improve the game.

quote: The whole unit/improvemnet dissapearing from build queues thing

That can be fix by saving and loading. Of course that is caused by the resynches, I think we had so many becasue i did not have the mars terain downloaded-in fact I am almost sure that helped with the connection issue.

quote: Changes to Arctic hills / mtns

Thank you for that, btw; what changes to mines have you made? i know they cost more, that seems ok , but have you changed the gold they give?

quote: Can't build road till you have more PW than necessary

Not really a ig issue. Ctp already has the same little bug.Of course a fix would be nice.

quote: Settler adding to cities doesn't work for non-host

Any ideas on the fix yet? i really like this feature. It adds a new level of game style.

ALso I can not wait to test out your many new cows, and units past rangers.( you see those rovers can kick some butt )


I think next time we should test out a reg map with more civ building.

	15-06-2002 16:56									#138
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quote: Originally posted by drAgON1 That can be fix by saving and loading. Of course that is caused by the resynches, I think we had so many becasue i did not have the mars terain downloaded-in fact I am almost sure that helped with the connection issue.

Sounds plausible - I'd forgotten about that. Remind me next time and I'll deactivate it in my version before we begin.

quote: what changes to mines have you made? i know they cost more, that seems ok , but have you changed the gold they give?

Mines give (Prod/Gold): +5/+5 on flat terrain, +10/+5 on hills, +15/+5 on mtns - I think that's the same as before. The prices I copied from the MedMod, since they'd playtested that quite thoroughly. These mines do have to last you a very long time (you don't get advanced mines until robotics) so it might be a good idea to improve them, but I don't think so.

quote: Any ideas on the fix yet? i really like this feature. It adds a new level of game style.

I have one idea, but I'm not hopeful. It's a very long time since I did any SLICing so I'm a bit rusty.

quote: ALso I can not wait to test out your many new cows, and units past rangers.( you see those rovers can kick some butt )

Indeed! Lots of exciting things to come - I'm especially interested in how the partisan feature will work out.

quote: I think next time we should test out a reg map with more civ building.

Sounds like a good plan. I'll get the changes done ASAP.

	16-06-2002 01:18									#139
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Got the settler addition to cities working (it works over my LAN, anyway). I've had to link it to fortifying settlers in cities - i.e. you fortify and the settler adds to the city. This is a bit of a shame because it means you can't fortify settlers in cities size 2-6 but that's no great loss (in normal CTP, after all, you couldn't fortify them at all...).

Made some other changes too - I'll get the new version up soon.

Do you think I should make nets cheaper now that they're only half as good as farms?..

	16-06-2002 01:55									#140
	Update v1.12 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

(Chain posting again - have I made 50% yet, IW? )

OK, v1.12 as promised - usual place, you need download only the texts. Some GL updates again, so you'll need to follow a similar procedure as described before.

Changes in this version:

Arctic hills to F0/P5/G5.
Arctic mtns to F0/P15/G5.
Changed the settler in size one city message to a messagebox - you should never need to actually do this.
Changed the add-settler-to-city function so that it is activated by fortifying a settler in a city, rather than via a button to make it work in MP.
Cut Nuclear Plant maintainance to 20.
Increased Fusion Plant maintainance to 40.
Increased Recycling Plant maintainance to 20.

	16-06-2002 03:01									#141
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If I hadn't have posted this then you would have.

	01-07-2002 23:18									#142
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, I'm back online, but not available to play online (expensive and very slow dialup in South Africa )

	02-07-2002 00:27									#143
	Increase Your PM Length

Darn, this thread has progressed since I went on vacation Why didn't I notice this before? Thumbs up for the good work, J (and dragon too)

I guess it's about time for another news item...

(BTW, this is by no means the longest thread ever, I remember threads going over 200 posts for things like MedMod and stuff - but this *is* by far the longest thread since the release of CtP2...)

	02-07-2002 14:32									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Do a sort by thread length in this forum, and it's first... The next being 93. The long MedMod thread is in the general/help/strategy forum...

	02-07-2002 16:14									#145
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I did but the list I get is far from complete, I'm missing many threads. During the 23 backup procedures and server moves and stuff we went through in the past year, a lot of data was lost (plus, all those MedMod thread in General were started in Creation and only moved to General once the new version was finished)

But this thread is indeed *one* of the longest threads in CtP history, which is largely because 150 posts used to be the maximum allowed and long threads tended to be visited by the f*ck up fairy, so ususally people didn't dare go past 100 posts before they would just start a new thread... Those were the days

Last edited by Locutus on 02-07-2002 at 16:21

	02-07-2002 18:29									#146
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hey, Locutus... do you know anything about if the 1.21 hack for the PC version of Ctp is available for Mac? Or what it does? Depending on what it does I'd be able to create a hack for the Mac (and therefore be able to use the Mars mod.)

	02-07-2002 19:18									#147
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Flame,
I don't know much about the Mac version of the game. At this point, all I can say to help you is read this thread. I haven't read everything but it seems a very useful thread. It seems you may not need the hack. I'll see tonight if I have time to find out more that could help you.

Some other pointers: If that thread doesn't help you, there are many others in the Mac forum that might be useful. Also, check the Troubleshoot on the Apolyton CtP1 Mac Section.

Although they haven't been here in a while, you could try contacting MacUser, TheThirdJesus or Baston. Baston's webistes (new and old) might also prove useful.

	02-07-2002 21:11									#148
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Locutus I don't know much about the Mac version of the game. At this point, all I can say to help you is read this thread.

It looks to me that they just came up with the last solution I suggested - to start an SP game under the mod before loading the saved game (be it SP or PBEM) - did you ever try that?

And of course they mention the alternative which is to copy the files over your default ones - which isn't such a bad solution provided you keep backups carefully and write batch-file equivalents (did you call them AppleScripts?) to make switching easy. I suspect that this won't work with PBEM unless all players do the same, but it might be worth a try.

	02-07-2002 21:20									#149
	Increase the size of your Attachments

starting works fine... but loading a PBEM doesn't.

Especially overwritting default files doesn't work, that's what I tried to do first.

	02-07-2002 21:29									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I seem to recall you saying that you just renamed the Mars directory to the ctp_data directory (and put it in the right place) - that would be insufficient, you'd have to make a copy of the ctp_data directory and then copy the deafult and english directories from the Mars directory into it, so that you keep all the default files that are not changed in the mod, and thus not included. If that is what you tried, then what happened?