11-10-2001 12:20									#1
	No FREE MP = CANCEL your orders / DON'T buy Civ3 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I propose to the Civ-loving public the following:

If Firaxis does not release a statement saying the MP will be part of a FREE download, CANCEL your pre-order and refuse to buy the game!

From here, I'll just paste what I wrote in another thread:

1. No matter if you play MP or don't, the fact that Firaxis kept this under their hats when they KNEW about it as far back as Kelly's 'leaked' e-mail completely ruins Firaxis' credibility on ANY announcements regarding planned patches and future versions of the game. Period.
   
2. I am not necessarily against the decision to delay MP *if* that allows for a better SP and *if* MP is released later for free...however, #1 is so disturbing, that I really don't feel like giving Firaxis any of my money at any point. "Your loss, Yin!" Sure. Whatever.
   
3. But rest assured that if Firaxis is capable of #1, they'll also be capable under their 'evil' publisher (whom THEY signed with) to try to make MP part of another product you have to pay for. I can only hope that if that were to happen that people would see Firaxis in a clear light.

Last edited by yin26 on 11-10-2001 at 21:37

	11-10-2001 12:24									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

resistance is futile. yin, we work for way too long in not-for-profit organizations

	11-10-2001 12:35									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Sorry, but I am willing and able to pay for a MP expansion pack.

I hate capitalism just as much as the next guy, but I still buy the products.

	11-10-2001 12:39									#4
	Ha ha ha ha Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Most consumers are sheep Yin Quixote

	11-10-2001 12:41									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If this thread keeps just $1 extra from going to Firaxis, I'll be more than happy.

	11-10-2001 12:44									#6
	Support Apolyton

Or if this thread helps to force the bare minimum *official* statement from Firaxis regarding this issue, I'll be more than happy.

	11-10-2001 12:50									#7
	It really is QUITE RUDE that they haven't made a statement about MP Suffering from ads?

Especially since we gave them all those cool ideas for their new game

	11-10-2001 13:15									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Try telling a heroin addict that, since the good stuff from Thailand isn't in yet, he should avoid the cheap substitute from Mexico and go to the detox center instead. The heroin addict will respond by cutting your throat and then buying the cheap stuff from Mexico, and then paying top dollar for the good stuff from Thailand once it arrives.

The Civ series, like all computer games, are electronic drugs, and we are all addicts. We can live with the low-grade stuff until the primo product arrives.

Stop telling us to go into detox!

	11-10-2001 13:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

LOL! Well, I guess I'm just not THAT addicted...anybody else here the same way or am I the only guy here who has gone through the 12 Step Program?

	11-10-2001 13:24									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sorry, don't give a damn about MP.

	11-10-2001 13:32									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Me either. I've got better things to do in life than wait ten minutes for some nerd to take his own sweet time with his turn, and end up thrashing me and totally humiliating me.

I would be positively pleased if MP never came at all.

Bkeela.

	11-10-2001 13:32									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

you do not have to go as far as heroin...try not drinking coffee in the morning

	11-10-2001 13:37									#13
	Support Apolyton

Do Firaxis suck?

Yes, they do.

Always have?

No. They used to be cool.

Why do they suck?

They lie, they run away, they abuse peoples loyality.

(These statements only applies if Firaxis charge anything for mp, not if its a free download. But if it was, why wouldnt they say so?)

Last edited by DonJoel on 11-10-2001 at 13:44

	11-10-2001 13:39									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

good. keep playing CtP

	11-10-2001 13:48									#15
	Tired of ads?

what if you leave it upon us to decide if we buy it or not ?
This action is a new negative landmark in your not so very good recent civ-post history.

in fact I got pretty angry when I read it first.
but I calmed down, and decided to not post the pretty hate post to you as I was intended to do.

I still completely miss the point about why Firaxis should be punished for anything. Why should they inform us about anything in the game ? You have no clue about how the markets works. You're not forced to buy *ANYTHING*

And all the fun you got from civ3 so far (at least I got) are for free ! Free screenshots, freen comments, free fun so far !

you make no sence on this yin !

	11-10-2001 13:53									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Firstly, Firaxis arent forcing you to buy the game. If MP is what you want then wait until they sell civ3 with multiplayer. You'll be the one missing out on the single player fun. Oh, what's that? You think single player sucks? Then what are you complaining about?? Wait until MP is released!

Game publishers are ruthless. It will cost the publisher money by delaying the product until multiplayer is implemented because they'll miss the christmas rush and they'll have to pay more wages and development costs to Firaxis.

I wouldn't expect the multiplayer component to be released for free - I'm sure Firaxis would love to release a MP component for free but that would cost them money. The publisher will know that selling a MP pack will make them even more money later on from the experience of civnet and civ 2.

Its not really Firaxis's fault because they have to secure a publisher and get a good deal out of it themselves. The game industry is a cut-throat one - I'm afraid that this is how it works.

	11-10-2001 13:59									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Dear Yin,

Why must you start another crusade against Firaxis/civ3?
If it upsets you so much why waste so much time and energy? Just turn your back on civ3 and find something more rewarding to keep yourself occupied with.
Apart from which I believe that most people on this forum are grown-up enough to decide for themselves if the lack of MP is reason for them not to buy the game.
So please Yin, swallow your gall and find something meaningful to do.

Best wishes,

Manamagnus

Last edited by Mannamagnus on 11-10-2001 at 14:09

	11-10-2001 16:57									#18
	Got spare money?

Hang on, let us not count our chickens before they hatch. I am generally quite content to manage with SP alone, as the AI looks promising, and as long as PBEM is implemented, I will be satisfied. But I agree, it would be extremely unscrupulous to have to pay for an MP version *if* this is the case, which I doubt. However, if this was just one thing released in an expansion pack with, lets say, new civs and some new little additions, then I wouldn't have any objection particularly, but it would be nice to make it available as a download to those who don't buy such a pack (I would buy the pack anyway).

But let us hold back with the stern criticism until we figure out what is going on, because if you are wrong, you will end up with egg on your face, and generally looking very silly.

	11-10-2001 17:39									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yin:

You have the right idea on this subject. Firaxis is in the same league (IMHO) with Blizzard, whom I will never pay full price for their products again.

Simple reason in Blizzards case, Diablo2:

They release an expansion pack that causes as many problems as it adds new features, in some cases it breaks the game. They wait SIX weeks to patch the expansion and then, a month after that they sell the D2, the expansion pack and D1 for the SAME price as D2 was a year and a half earlier and only $10 more than the expansion pack was seperately.

Good company money making, sure. Piss a lot of customers off that their expansion pack broke the game and it took 6 weeks to patch it, YES. Game, plus expansion pack has been out for a year and a half after FOUR years in development and they have still issued NINE patches.

Irresponsible, you bet'cha!

I am sure many of the sheep/lemmings here (who have taken this chance to bash you and anyone who doesn't worship at the alter of Sid (get a life!)) will have no problem in being part of the problem of game companies shoddy business practices but some of us do care. As many games and companies that are on the market companies should treat their customers as more than sponges that they can squeeze money out of and release shoddy products for.

I had debated on buying Civ3 even if it didn't have MP, but now I think I'll wait because frankly, I don't like the way the game industry is heading, namely:

1) Releasing shoddy manuals and placing all the info that should have been in the manual in some kind of "strategy guide" so people spend more money.
2) Releasing games with promised features missing and then requiring people to buy an expansion pack that completes the game, fixed broken game designs, etc.
3) Releasing games that require multiple patchs to fix game balance issues, etc. Should a patch be issues to fix a problem with game/machine compatibility and crashes, if needed yes. Should a patch be issued to fix the broken items that weren't fixed in the "beta testing" and "game balancing" phase of the game, HECK NO! This is what you release DEMO's for, or HIRE people from outside to beat the game up so it's BALANCED from the time it's sent as gold. How many patches has Age of Kings had, 3, and the last was simply to disable Warez copies of the game.

It's high time people stop paying game companies for shoddy products. Some people won't care, others will, but the point to remember isn't about the money cost (although for some that is an issue) but the principle of the issue.

Would you pay someone full price for 50% or 75% of the job they promised to do and hen pay them another 25% - 50% to finish the job? If so then you are a moron and I'd like to work for you when I can get paid for more than the effort I expended.

I wonder how Firaxis will feel once the folks here go to all the other message boards across the Internet and talk about how they have acted on this issue. It's a shame because when Firaxis first started I thought they would be *THE* game company, now they are as arrogant as BLizzard whose motto is "We know what the people want better than they do".

Heh, I guess we can all eat cake, eh?

	11-10-2001 17:40									#20
	Oh! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sorry, don't give a damn about MP.

	11-10-2001 17:43									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I am more than willing to pay for multiplayer. I consider it an honor to support Sid's efforts to provide quality game entertainment.

	11-10-2001 17:52									#22
	Put an end to popups!

I'll buy it just to tick yin off.

	11-10-2001 17:53									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I am more than willing to pay for multiplayer. I consider it an honor to support Sid's efforts to provide quality game entertainment.

lol, do you let him bring his own lubricant as well or do you supply it for him?

	11-10-2001 17:56									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I hear europa universalis is good....oh and I think it came with MP features!

Attachment: firaxis.jpg
This has been downloaded 648 time(s).

	11-10-2001 18:00									#25
	Sorry Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I won't cancel my preorder of Civ3. If I get burned, then I do. lesson learned. but I have never preordered something before, and I'm giving them a chance.

BUT

I will not pay for an expansion pack to get multiplayer. I got civnet used for 2$, I have never gotten MGE, and won't until it's less than 5$ in the bargain bin. if they expect to get multiplayer bucks out of me, they are sorely dissapointed.

	11-10-2001 18:01									#26
	Want information about MP from FIRAXIS Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yes,
Yin has some good points and I do think that FIRAXIS should make an statement about MP.

drake: LOL on your picture. Didn't even catch your joke on first view, so you managed to hide the point of your joke quite well...

	11-10-2001 18:18									#27
	hmmmmm..... Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous I am sure many of the sheep/lemmings here (who have taken this chance to bash you and anyone who doesn't worship at the alter of Sid (get a life!)) ...... ......I had debated on buying Civ3 even if it didn't have MP, but now I think I'll wait because frankly, I don't like the way the game industry is heading.....

'Tis not us who need the life Ozy.

Fraxis will deliver CIV III. It wont have MP in it. MP comes later. if you don't like it don't buy it - but please keep your theories to yourself. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY CIV III WITHOUT MP....just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're lemmings or sheep. It might mean that we are actually happy with what we think Fraxis have delivered in CIV III - you obviously are not!

quote: It's high time people stop paying game companies for shoddy products. Some people won't care, others will, but the point to remember isn't about the money cost (although for some that is an issue) but the principle of the issue

How do you know the game is shoddy? (..because it doesn't have MP? Civ is actually, principly, a single player experience)... Oh you don't that must mean your just mouthing off without knowing the facts!

quote: Would you pay someone full price for 50% or 75% of the job they promised to do and hen pay them another 25% - 50% to finish the job? If so then you are a moron and I'd like to work for you when I can get paid for more than the effort I expended.

But it is not an unfinished game. If Fraxis decide that they will not include MP in the original release - for whatever reason - then it is not in the original release (can't say it more simply than that)

quote: Heh, I guess we can all eat cake, eh?

You can - I'll be playing CIV III

	11-10-2001 18:37									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

I hope that Civ3's diplomacy model is realistic. If you betray another Civilisation then they are less likely to trust you again and are less tolerant of things that you do.

The thing is, if CIV3 needs a major patch to work properly my trust and patience that I would have normally have offered won't be there because of the way that Firaxis has handle and continue to handle the MP issue.

Dan asked before if he was 'Chopped liver' now. No. But his company is.

Yin - I wish I had the strength of will to cancel my order, but I don't so I won't but I support anyone who decides not to buy the game because of this.

	11-10-2001 18:39									#29
	Well... Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Th0mas 'Tis not us who need the life Ozy. Fraxis will deliver CIV III. It wont have MP in it. MP comes later. if you don't like it don't buy it - but please keep your theories to yourself. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY CIV III WITHOUT MP....just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're lemmings or sheep. It might mean that we are actually happy with what we think Fraxis have delivered in CIV III - you obviously are not!

What theories? The fact that MP will be released later, that's a fact. The fact that they will likely charge for MP in some weak version of an Xpack that has scenarios posted here and other people that they didn't create? Not a fact, but a very strong possibility based on past history of this game, even when Sid was involved.

Oh, regarding the lemming/sheep comment, well, what do you call folks who blindly take whatever they are given with no questions asked? Even if it has less than promised, even if it is of low quality? What do you call that? I'd call it someone who is a "follower" hence the lemming and/or sheep comment.

Loyalty is a *very* good thing, more people should display it, but BLIND loyalty is not good. If Firxais had come out 2 months ago and confirmed that there would be no MP they'd have people less upset, but they didn't.

quote: How do you know the game is shoddy? (..because it doesn't have MP? Civ is actually, principly, a single player experience)... Oh you don't that must mean your just mouthing off without knowing the facts!

Oops, you got me. I guess I am mouthing off just like all the folks who think this game will be the next best thing since sliced bread without having played it as well, eh?

quote: But it is not an unfinished game. If Fraxis decide that they will not include MP in the original release - for whatever reason - then it is not in the original release (can't say it more simply than that)

It's an unfinished game if they didn't include all they said they would. I have yet to see an official announcement from Firaxis to all the people who preordered more than 3 months ago that MP will not be included. There has been an interview where it was (finally) admitted but what about those people who pre-ordered the game when MP was still advertised as a selling feature? I bet they will be surprised when they get the game...

quote: You can - I'll be playing CIV III

Heh, and I'll be playing the Gold version og Railroad Tycoon 2, Jagged Alliance 2, Age of Kings & Conquerors, finishing Icewind Dale, finishing Baldurs Gate 2, and maybe even Stronghold. I have plenty to do, and plenty of games to play. I guess that's why my game playing experience doesn't hinge on this one game (so I can wait) as others seem to do.

	11-10-2001 18:51									#30
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sorry, don't give a damn about MP.

Ditto. Always a voice of reason in the face of Yin's barrages. Reminds me of the days back on the SMAC forum prior to release - Yin all up in arms about whatever, and saying don't buy the game. Woo, that must of put a dent in their sales.

Take a break Yin. Go find some other game to play. Go play Evercrap or something if you want to play online. Go play something that was MEANT to be multiplayer.

The Civ series has always been about SINGLE PLAYER. There were never any promises or false advertising or injustices of any sort from Firaxis - all along they have stated that the final product was subject to change.