12-10-2001 21:17									#211
	Some people just don't get it... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by cassembler It tickles me so... So many people's lives wrecked, tattered, ruined because of no MP... for a video game... sob poor multiplayers...

Heh, to reply to one post by using someone else's post...

Reply is as follows:

quote: Originally posted by Takeshi For those of you trying to make sense of this thread: -It started as an attack on Firaxis' misleading advertising of Multiplayer. -Due to a combination of sensationalism, misdirection and misinterpretation, many have thought this was an attack on the actual game itself instead of the advertising of the game. -Once the first shot was fired... well, the mud just flies.

See it's not hard to really read what's said, the original post was a complain about the advertising Firaxis did.

Next time try to follow along.

	12-10-2001 21:23									#212
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Shiva You can say that about simcity, Railroad tycoon, Quake, Airwarrior,warcraft, and so on and so on. Its the way of the market. Why did Civ 2 do so well? Because it was evolutionary not revolutionary. There isnt a need to start from scratch or adding so much that you lose the foundation of the game. If someone here feels slighted or their feelings got hurt thats life. They have to make choices that are driven by money. Im sure they would have loved to add a bunch of other stuff too but because of time and cash they couldnt. Thats the way it goes it happens all the time with games. Just because a fan puts in a bunch of suggestions the company owes him? Maybe having your name in the manual or something but it doesnt mean they will do something to effect the bottom line. They have a job to do, they are the ones who decide what is done, and they are the ones who are on the firing line when the game sinks or swims. Not some fans with brused egos and no idea whats going on behind the doors. Right to be pissed off indeed

One question about this statement...

What happens if MOO3 is released and sells huge masses of copies more than Civ3 because it IS revolutionary yet founded in the same basic principles as the earlier games?

Will it mean that Civ3 would have been/done better if they had taken some chances?

My gut feeling is that MOO3 will escalate TBS games to the next level and everyone will be running to catch up. Now then, we will not know how any of this plays out for 6 months to a year, but should be interesting to see.

Oh, and how about C&C, Red Alert, etc, all the games that kept the same previously successful idea and either did worse or not as well as their competitors?

Innovation is not a bad thing, game companies just need to find the thin line between truly upgrading their ideas and changing the foundation of the game so that all those who are afraid to change will not even try it.

"Ahh, new idea, run away, run away!"

	12-10-2001 21:32									#213
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't think Firaxis behaved badly. They held off making an announcement because they didn't know what they would be able to do.

Umm, so why haven't they said anything officially on MP yet? The game is gold, how much more can they do to the version that people will BUY in the stores?

Answer: Nothing.

So why have they still not released a public announcement on it at Civ3.com?

Maybe because people will assume it has MP in some way, shape or form and buy it anyway. I hope not because then folks will likely be disappointed.

Oh well, such is life.

	12-10-2001 21:41									#214
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon Yin26, et al.: If Firaxis charges $59 for SP and people snap it up, fine. If they then want another $10 to $20 to put out an MP part later, I'm sure the folks who *want* MP will get it. Those of us who like SP only will stick with that. Everyone wins. SP folks get what they want, and the MP folks get their high, too. CYBERAmazon

So why should the MP people have to pay more? Answer me that.

	12-10-2001 21:43									#215
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by BigBopper sorry, no time to read all the posts, so I may be repeating something. FOOLS! HERITICS!, how dare you question the wisdom of the SID! I will sacrifice a cat at my alter to Firaxis that they may stay thier mighty wrath. Oh, and if MP is that important to you, hold off and purchase the MP version that will be sure to come.

Baaaaa....


(Just for Shiva)

	12-10-2001 22:14									#216
	It's official..check the FAQ Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MP is NOT in...surprise surprise

lurk mode off

	12-10-2001 23:04									#217
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks for pointing that out to me art_vandelai, I will now be cancelling my pre-order. I'll just get the Shogun Total War expansion and play that and my other games until I see some Civ 3 multiplayer or the game is $30 at EB (prolly a couple months).

Therefore you won't be hearing my rants (all 2 of them about not having MP anymore either. Why waste my time on a forum for a game I'm not even buying

	12-10-2001 23:15									#218
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OK, isnt 217 replies enough?

We all gonna get MP, but we obviosly have to wait until Firaxis releases that expansion-pack. If this is a huge problem; dont buy the game - it is as simple as that.

	12-10-2001 23:17									#219
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by SITS Yet if you look at the forum posts you see 3 times more Civ2 MP posts than Civ2 Creation posts and about 14 times more MP posts in the SMAC forum.

"Turn Done. Handing over to MOBIUS."

(SMAC had really bad scenario-making facilities, that's why there is next-to-no community for it. I myself gave up after those three or four maps.)

	12-10-2001 23:27									#220
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The biggest thing that amazes me about this whole debate is the beleif of Yin and others that Firaxis OWES them a reply.

Why?

No contracts were broken - there are no legal reasons to do this...

Bad PR? Sure there may be might be made a case for that - however I would restate things by saying Firaxis SHOULD reply - but the fact of the matter this would simply be satisfying the fanboy croud.

In order to understand how relatively insignificant we really are in the success/failure of a game, you have to understand how software is sold........

The vast majority is to "non-rabid" people who pick up a piece of software either after reading a review, hearing about it from a friend or seeing it in a store.

So if screaming and yelling about this is cathargic for you - go ahead, but again realize that this has totally decended into a religious war - both sides are yelling at eachother and the other side really does not listen.... They are only looking for the holes in the other sides argument - not constructive.....

	13-10-2001 00:07									#221
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith Many Games Magazines (on paper and on-line) usually cut some point from a game overall vote, if it can't be played in any MP form.

They might cut a few points but all of the print mags play softball now. They let too much slide and quite a few are just questionable at best. Most of the best reviews are online by regular people but they dont have the readers to make a difference.

	13-10-2001 00:09									#222
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well... Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous (And I will not comment on sheep and rubbing the wrong way, rofl!)

Hey I'm from Nebraska not Texas, sheep arnt used that way here

	13-10-2001 00:13									#223
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

YEah ozy, they like goats and football in nebraska........

Hey marky mark, isnt it about time this baby got put out of its misery?

	13-10-2001 00:14									#224
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Neuronix Thanks for pointing that out to me art_vandelai, I will now be cancelling my pre-order. I'll just get the Shogun Total War expansion and play that and my other games until I see some Civ 3 multiplayer or the game is $30 at EB (prolly a couple months). Therefore you won't be hearing my rants (all 2 of them about not having MP anymore either. Why waste my time on a forum for a game I'm not even buying

Shogun Total War is a good example of why some things should be left alone or when you do an expansion it shouldnt screw up what you have patched before.

	13-10-2001 00:22									#225
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Heh, last words for now (this thread exploded then fizzled, heh).

1) Firaxis doesn't "owe" anyone anything, customers will pay for what they want, although it would be nice if Firaxis did mention the work that some people did to try to make the game better.

A simple "we got a lot of ideas from fans and they even gave us better ideas" would probably suffice.

2) I think even the "SP rules, MP sucks" folks realize the marketing SNAFU Firaxis did with MP (hopefully since that was the main point IMHO).

3) Since game magazines are in shaky legs financially and depend heavily on the advertising of the game companies to stay in business we can't really expect them to be impartial can we? At least not impartial to the big names & games. *shrug*

4) Who's yelling and screaming about the issue? Some just grumble louder than others..

5) Shiva, "Nebraska, where the men are men and the cows are..." heh.

So... Anyone have any other good TBS games that do have MP? My girlfriend and I play together over LAN sometimes (have to love those Linksys router/switch combo's!) and are looking for a good game to play together.

Current play list:
1) Icewind Dale
2) Baldurs Gate 2
3) Age of Kings & Conquerors

Games we used to play but dislike now:
1) Diablo2. See other comments I made in this thread as to why.

Ideas? Suggestions?

	13-10-2001 00:43									#226
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Will it mean that Civ3 would have been/done better if they had taken some chances?

MAybe ,maybe not, no one but that annoying late night tv lady Cleo would know. The worlds full of coulda woulda shouldas.

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Oh, and how about C&C, Red Alert, etc, all the games that kept the same previously successful idea and either did worse or not as well as their competitors?

I really dont know anything about RTS click fest games. AI's have a hard enough time in a turn based game. I've lost interest in RTS after Warcraft2 and Harpoon2. AI's cant think on their own and until they do theres just not alot of fun when things cant react (like something alive would).

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Innovation is not a bad thing, game companies just need to find the thin line between truly upgrading their ideas and changing the foundation of the game so that all those who are afraid to change will not even try it. "Ahh, new idea, run away, run away!"

Innovation isnt bad but if you go for too much then you run the risk of something like Sierra's football game that had to be recalled from the shelves. Also there are points when a game system should be left alone for quite a while before we see a sequel every year or so with just a little more added to it. You are right, "game companies" need to find the line. For the rest of us its just coulda woulda shoulda

	13-10-2001 00:54									#227
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Heh, last words for now (this thread exploded then fizzled, heh). 5) Shiva, "Nebraska, where the men are men and the cows are..." heh. So... Anyone have any other good TBS games that do have MP? My girlfriend and I play together over LAN sometimes (have to love those Linksys router/switch combo's!) and are looking for a good game to play together. Ideas? Suggestions?

Bahhh "Nebraska, where theres beer, women and nothing else to do" God how I miss Seattles night life.

Imperialism II is good one. If your girlfriend doesnt mind wargames theres Steelpanthers World at War (big download but free).

	13-10-2001 03:41									#228
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Screw MP I am extremely happy that Firaxis didn't waste time and resources on MP and instead focus on making the best SP game ever. Which is what MOST of us want.

Face it Yin you are in a VERY tiny minority. Neither Firaxis, I, nor most Civ fans care about what you think. You have done nothing but try to sabotoge Civ III and Firaxis for the last 8 or 9 months.

	13-10-2001 04:02									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Screw MP I am extremely happy that Firaxis didn't waste time and resources on MP and instead focus on making the best SP game ever. Which is what MOST of us want. Face it Yin you are in a VERY tiny minority. Neither Firaxis, I, nor most Civ fans care about what you think. You have done nothing but try to sabotoge Civ III and Firaxis for the last 8 or 9 months.

The difference between a shill and a chump is that a shill gets paid to write these sorts of praises. So Dennis580, are YOU on the Firaxis payroll?

	13-10-2001 04:37									#230
	Put an end to popups!

So what they lied that's capitalism. U don't like it tough. Personally i love capitalism so what if you get cheated along the way its better that oh were the great generous game company and we'll do everythings our fans say. Personally i'd be disapointed acted like that. It means their not a strong company. They should swindle the consumer as much as they can. Personally i think the game is kind of cheap for what it entailing. and i'll pay every penny, for every extra, why because i'm a fan and you obvisouly arent

come on, stop living in your fantasy world where everythiing and everybody always does the right thing and never takes advantage of a situation.

	13-10-2001 04:47									#231
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Mars So what they lied that's capitalism. U don't like it tough. Personally i love capitalism so what if you get cheated along the way its better that oh were the great generous game company and we'll do everythings our fans say. Personally i'd be disapointed acted like that. It means their not a strong company. They should swindle the consumer as much as they can. Personally i think the game is kind of cheap for what it entailing. and i'll pay every penny, for every extra, why because i'm a fan and you obvisouly arent come on, stop living in your fantasy world where everythiing and everybody always does the right thing and never takes advantage of a situation.

I guess Freeciv is not your type of game then.

	13-10-2001 05:44									#232
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: I guess Freeciv is not your type of game then.

Nah, a try capitalist knows when to exploit a good sitaution

	13-10-2001 09:55									#233
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Snapcase "Turn Done. Handing over to MOBIUS." (SMAC had really bad scenario-making facilities, that's why there is next-to-no community for it. I myself gave up after those three or four maps.)

I accept that kind of comment is common in the MP threads but there is much more there as well. What strikes me about the threads I'm involved in is the sense of community each game seems to have.

	13-10-2001 10:15									#234
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The only people who feel this way are the MP people or people who seem to have expected EVERYTHING they want be implemented. Many, many people who are not MP players have spent just as much time giving ideas, and they are excited about the product coming out. You can't speak for everyone here.

I don't expect EVERYTHING I want to be implemented. Some of it would be nice and certainly what they said will be implemented would be nicer.

I don't speak for everyone and I certainly don't try to stop others from speaking either. I've never advocated that SP shouldn't be included unlike some of the nastier SP's.

quote: And again, it's Firaxis's game, not anyone elses. They don't have an obligation to implement ANY suggestions, but they have implemented MANY. Making blanket statements that they "blew aside" the Civ fans is false.

Firaxis don't have an obligation to implement mine or other mere customers suggestions. They do have an obligation to tell the truth, to be honest about their product. If they say MP will be in it then they should follow though on that. If something comes up that stops them from including it then they say so. They haven't.

They NOW say that SP has been their focus thoughout - didn't seem to mention that when lots of people were pre-ordering did they?

quote: I see nothing that shows they've done this. They vast majority of die hard Civ fans are not MP players. It's funny how you harp on how ungrateful and Firaxis is toward the fans. I see the opposite, ungrateful people ripping on Firaxis. The mere fact that Dan is here so much and does answer so many questions is far more than I ever would have expected. Certainly more than other game companies do. In no way does your length of time here in any way make your opinion or feelings more valid than theirs. By this logic, I can say that since I've played Civ since the original first came out, my opinion is more valid than people who started with Civ II. This is not true and utterly pointless to bring up. Cheers.

I disagree that the vast majority of DIE HARD fans are SP. I agree that the vast majority of Civ customers are SP but the gamers that play it longer and harder will be the MP's for once you've beaten the AI what challenge is there except to play against someone else?

Firaxis should have been honest, they haven't been. That is treating their customers badly.

Its great that Dan is here. I even asked him to make a change to the website and he did it within 10 minutes. Great! But when people asked him about MP what do you think the answer was?

Look, it comes down to doing what you said you were going to do. If you can't then you say why. If Firaxis had said last month, 'Sorry chaps, we can't do MP in time but we will have it released in March next year as part of an expansion pack with lots of other goodies' then I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't be *****ing about Firaxis being dishonest.

Do you see my point?

	13-10-2001 11:01									#235
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You know, I might as well open my checkbook, sign a couple or three checks, and hand them to Firaxis. I care a lot about multiplayer. I really hope they do something new with multiplayer.

However, I don't think that Firaxis has committed a gross breach of my trust. They withdrew an advertised feature several weeks before the shipping date. There's plenty of time for people to cancel their orders. That's fine with me. I would have been upset if they hadn't told us prior to ship date.

At any rate, even though I am looking forward to multiplayer and will miss it sorely if it isn't included, I will buy the game for single player and happily send Firaxis more money for patches or multiplayer or whatever comes along. If there's no multiplayer, I'll be disappointed, but I'll still thoroughly enjoy the game. Does this make me a sheep? No. I know what I'm getting for my $, and I have made an informed decision to spend the money.

	13-10-2001 19:17									#236
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Billy Joel

quote: Originally posted by drake Yeah, what neuronix said I'll look for civ 3 in the bargain bin "but if I go cold, I won't get sold, I get put in the back in the discount rack Like another can of beans" Kudos to whoever can identify where that line came from.

	14-10-2001 07:50									#237
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't be *****ing about Firaxis being dishonest.

Precisely. And yet, the bending over continues...

	14-10-2001 11:40									#238
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by SITS Look, it comes down to doing what you said you were going to do. If you can't then you say why. If Firaxis had said last month, 'Sorry chaps, we can't do MP in time but we will have it released in March next year as part of an expansion pack with lots of other goodies' then I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't be *****ing about Firaxis being dishonest.

Excellent post SITS!