11-10-2001 21:39									#61
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 You guys who buy this game DESERVE any crap Firaxis decides to shove down your throats. So why do I hang around? To watch you come to realize you should have spent your money when the advertised game was actually available. But hey...if you guys don't mind paying once to be beta testers and once AGAIN for the complete product, feel free. I'll thank you for your hard work later.

It's not being shoved down my throat. It's my choice to buy the game. And I choose to buy it.

I don't mind beta testing. You're welcome for my "hard work". Although I don't consider it hard work since I'll be having fun, bugs and all.

	11-10-2001 21:41									#62
	Re: hmmmmm..... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ozy:
"Heh, I guess we can all eat cake, eh?"

Th0mas:
"You can - I'll be playing CIV III "



Me too!

"I'll buy it just to tick yin off."

Yeah, sometimes he's a pain in the neck!

I WILL buy the game, but I won't pay for MP. Never played it anyway...

I can understand your concerns, BUT keep 'em to yourself...just don't buy the freakin' game!

	11-10-2001 21:43									#63
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About original post. I will still buy Civ 3. Moreover, I am buying it, and I always intended to buy it for SP. From what I know about the game, the SP mode is going to be excellent. I don't play much multiplayer. I view the lack of MP in the game as a positive thing, I'm happy about it - thus, all the time they spent here was only concentrated on doing single player, and means SP will be better than ever.
On the other hand, if MP came as a free patch, I'd download it. However, as it's going to cost money, I absolutely refuse to buy it. No, I won't pirate it, I don't support piracy, but I won't buy the MP expansion. Unless it really adds to single player, too. If it contains new civs, units, techs, bug fixes, etc. (like The Conquerors for AOE2), I will buy it. If it's only MP, then no - sorry Firaxis.

Yin, may I ask you a question - what is NOW your opinion on buying Civ 3. When I did the Faces of Apolyton interview with you, you called that an easy question, and said you'll buy that immediately. However, this thread makes it look like you won't buy civ 3. Will you?

As for Firaxis, I still like them. Though they have absolutely ignored all the request there were (often originated by me) about adding support for 800x600 screen resolutions, I still like them. I like the way they make the website. I like the way they answer our questions on the forums.

Oh, and one last thing. If Yin doesn't buy Civ 3, he should blame himself for all the fun he loses in that case.

	11-10-2001 21:44									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hey: I've already dedicated more hours to Civ3 than many of you ever will. If I feel like b!itching now, you'd better get used to it. Don't like it? Too damn bad.

	11-10-2001 21:45									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: When I did the Faces of Apolyton interview with you, you called that an easy question, and said you'll buy that immediately. However, this thread makes it look like you won't buy civ 3. Will you?

If you recall, I had Markos add a disclaimer to my interview.

	11-10-2001 21:46									#66
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Solver About original post. I will still buy Civ 3. Moreover, I am buying it, and I always intended to buy it for SP. From what I know about the game, the SP mode is going to be excellent. I don't play much multiplayer. I view the lack of MP in the game as a positive thing, I'm happy about it - thus, all the time they spent here was only concentrated on doing single player, and means SP will be better than ever. Oh, and one last thing. If Yin doesn't buy Civ 3, he should blame himself for all the fun he loses in that case.

I agree. I'm glad they aren't including MP in the initial release. This sounds like they want to concentrate on SP first.

And I don't think anything can satisfy Yin. No matter what they do, he would find something to complain about. His idea of fun is to complain, so he actually is gaining fun by not buying the game.

	11-10-2001 21:47									#67
	Re: Re: Well... Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Th0mas I refer you to mjs0's posts, as he explains it better than myself: apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=525463#post525463 however..... I am glad that you have time to play all those games and I wish I had that luxury - unfortunately with two young children and a demanding wife - having my own time is rare and therefore by implication very precious. I have chosen to play CIV III in that time above all other contenders.

Thanks but I had already read his (excellent) post(s).

I agree with much of what he said, yet I also am tired of having to buy a game and then the expansion pack to get the whole game. I am tired of having to download patch after patch to have a game that's reasonably balanced, etc.

Expansion packs should be for EXTRA stuff the designers wanted to put in like additional wonders, tile sets, some in-house scenarios THEY created, new units, maybe more tech's on the tree, etc, an expansion pack should not include a basic aspect of computer games now days, namely MP.

Maybe I am just old-fashioned but I don't like when people say one thing, then renig without even the honor and decency to own up to what is really happening. In case you (and others apparently) haven't understood that point yet, it comes down to responsibility.

Did Firaxis act responsibly by refusing to confirm or deny the fact that MP wasn't going to ship? Yes they did.

Would people have felt as upset if told two months ago when the whole issuie with MP started? Yes, but not as much I think as a lot of people feel now based on principles.

As I have said before, I don't play Civ MP, I have other games that are much better for that, but I resent the fact that the info about MP leaked over two months ago and Firaxis refused to confirm the fact it was out. The simple fact of them first advertising MP and then silently (sneakily?) removing all comment of it on selling sites is like a spit in the face.

All in all, the issue is not that an important aspect is gone it's the manner in which Firaxis handled this whole incident. THis leaves me to think (as well as others based on comments I have read) and wonder what other aspects Firxais promised but either left out or poorly implemented yet never told anyone.

You may want to be an "extended beta-tester" and pay for the priviledge, but as for myself, nah, I'd rather wait for the full game to come out.

(Free time is relative, and I am enjoying it while I can until Masters courses start this spring )

	11-10-2001 21:49									#68
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Hey: I've already dedicated more hours to Civ3 than many of you ever will.

Doing what? You on the development team now or something? Posting a bunch of "ideas" or rants or whatever isn't time dedicated to a game, it's time spent amusing oneself.

	11-10-2001 21:50									#69
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quote: No matter what they do, he would find something to complain about.

Wrong. I was rather happy to buy the LE until Firaxis started pulling this horrendous MP crap.

	11-10-2001 21:51									#70
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Stuie Doing what? You on the development team now or something? Posting a bunch of "ideas" or rants or whatever isn't time dedicated to a game, it's time spent amusing oneself.

He's one of the most successful trolls I've ever seen. Three pages in only a couple hours! Impressive.

	11-10-2001 21:51									#71
	Remove this text

quote: Doing what? You on the development team now or something? Posting a bunch of "ideas" or rants or whatever isn't time dedicated to a game, it's time spent amusing oneself.

Your ignorance is staggering. Care to confirm it some more with your next post?

	11-10-2001 21:53									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Wrong. I was rather happy to buy the LE until Firaxis started pulling this horrendous MP crap.

Um, no. You had complained before about there being no open beta. Please be consistent and don't lie. I had respected you before because you seemed sincere, but you may now lose me if you want to start lying.

You even said you would laugh at us who were beta testing the game.

	11-10-2001 21:57									#73
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Pembleton I had respected you before because you seemed sincere, but you may now lose me if you want to start lying.

You should of been around on the old SMAC forums, Pem. You'd know what a load of crap Yin can shovel out. When I came here and saw his name, I thought "Oh, great, bring on the horse feces."

	11-10-2001 21:57									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: but you may now lose me if you want to start lying.

I could care less. When I wrote my interview to Solver, I was resigned that Civ3 wouldn't revolutionize anything. I was ready to buy despite the lack of open beta. Ask Korn what I was saying on that topic if you doubt me. Then again, I'm not here to impress you, am I?

	11-10-2001 21:59									#75
	Tired of ads?

Stuie:

First you post something that hints you are a total idiot ignorant of the past two years of this forum. Then your next post PROVES you are a bottom feeder from longer than 3 years ago. Go ahead and entertain me some more, ignorant troll.

	11-10-2001 22:01									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by yin26 I could care less. When I wrote my interview to Solver, I was resigned that Civ3 wouldn't revolutionize anything. I was ready to buy despite the lack of open beta. Ask Korn what I was saying on that topic if you doubt me. Then again, I'm not here to impress you, am I?

Ok, I'll doubt you until Korn says something. And I like how you are becoming defensive and resorting to insults. I have not done that.

	11-10-2001 22:04									#77
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Did I insult you? All I said is I don't care if I 'lose you' or impress you or what. I post what I feel is right. Period.

	11-10-2001 22:05									#78
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The fact of the matter is that this has descended into the realms of religios wars.

On the right we have the "Firaxis is shafting us" bunch

On the left we have the "I will buy Civ3 and enjoy it" group

The two shall never meet. Hurling insults back and forth really accomplishes nothing other than raising peoples blood pressure.

Now where do I stand?

Having worked my entire professional career in Software, I have ZERO proplem with what Firaxis has done thus far. Did they advertise a feature that ultimately had to be withdrawn - yep. Happens all the time and you know what - you can cancel your order - also happens all the time.

I also plan on purchasing Civ3 ASAP - I to could care less about MP - but can understand the anger surrounding it. However, I hope and assume that you are mature individuals and can move on - no contract was violated, no promise broken (I do not consider advertising a promise). So move on.......

What I will have a problem with is if Civ 3 is released in an unfinished state. Thus far the Civ line has not let me down. Sure there have been problems, but none have caused me any substantial grief.

So in summary, all participants feel they are right - and to a certain extent they are - each side is not going to change the others opinion thus breath, let the bad karma out and get on with your life.


For those on the Right - wait until the game has the features you want - or do not buy it. You as a consumer have every right to do this - and I think that you should.

For those on the left - eagerly await Civ3 and hope that it lives up to the panacia that you have created in your minds (and I hope that it does)

Finally, relax - there are things to get mad about - especially when there are bombs being dropped in the world and there are things not to - Civ3.

	11-10-2001 22:06									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Pembleton And I don't think anything can satisfy Yin. No matter what they do, he would find something to complain about. His idea of fun is to complain, so he actually is gaining fun by not buying the game.

Well based on what I have seen Yin post his idea of fun is to stand up and speak out in support of what he believes in:

In this case a game company promising a feature and then neglecting to tell their customers about the feature being cut, even remaining silent when presented the perfect opportunity to do so on these forums.

All I can say is way to go Yin, glad someone else stands up as well, someone has to proclaim the sometimes unpopular view of what is right.

As for everyone else.. Enjoy the game, maybe one day you'll be gouged by a company one too many times and you'll transition to a consumer rights advocate also.

Don't lie to us or delude us, just give us the truth, it's better than sugar-coated lies anyday.

Oh, and for those who don't like complaints, why does it bother you? Because someone has an opposing view to yours? If you have the right to proclaim how great the game will be other people have the right to proclaim their doubts or problems with the game. It's a two way street.

	11-10-2001 22:06									#80
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Did I insult you? All I said is I don't care if I 'lose you' or impress you or what. I post what I feel is right. Period.

You were defensive to me. And you weren't insulting me, but you were insulting others.

	11-10-2001 22:08									#81
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous As for everyone else.. Enjoy the game, maybe one day you'll be gouged by a company one too many times and you'll transition to a consumer rights advocate also. Don't lie to us or delude us, just give us the truth, it's better than sugar-coated lies anyday.

I don't consider myself being gouged when I can return any game at any time to my local EB.

	11-10-2001 22:09									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Hey: I've already dedicated more hours to Civ3 than many of you ever will.

Wow that and 35 cents will let you call someone who cares

Nice holier than thou attitude Yin. How do you get through doorways with an ego that big??

	11-10-2001 22:09									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have insulted people who deserve it. I am defensive with you because your posted came from the wrong angle, in my opinion. I am not here to make people happy. I stand by everything I have said here 100%. However, don't take my being defensive with you as my insulting you. I am not.

	11-10-2001 22:09									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Utrecht The fact of the matter is that this has descended into the realms of religios wars.... Finally, relax - there are things to get mad about - especially when there are bombs being dropped in the world and there are things not to - Civ3.

You are absolutely correct, Utrecht. I for one will take a deep breath, sit back and relax, and ignore any threads that have to do with multiplayer. Should have done that in the first place.

	11-10-2001 22:10									#85
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Shiva: Play the game for 300 hours and get back to me.

	11-10-2001 22:13									#86
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Oh, and for those who don't like complaints, why does it bother you? Because someone has an opposing view to yours? If you have the right to proclaim how great the game will be other people have the right to proclaim their doubts or problems with the game. It's a two way street.

It's not the actual complaint. It's the fact that I've seen it repeatedly too many times. When I have a complaint, I say it once and leave it there. I don't constantly make the same thread over and over to troll a forum.

	11-10-2001 22:19									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by drake Bet you feel the same way about your love life too. Why find a real partner when I can dream up one? Civ is just a game, but so is baseball, or football. Just because people pay to see it does not mean it isn't still just a game. I play civ for recreation. I don't play because I want to be the best in the world or be the "king of civ". But i sure as hell play to win. Everyone does. No one starts a game thinking "I am going to shoot for the #3 best civ this game". Do you assut? Your argument is weak and your "facts" about the MP community are laughably in-accurate.

No comment, this discussion bores me.




Btw, almost everything I said was a countertroll however, I mean what I'm going to say now:

No one starts a game thinking "I am going to shoot for the #3 best civ this game". Do you assut?

In MP, I would try to win. But I never played Civ MP. I don't like being dependent on other people who disconnect/crash/are AFK, and I don't like to let other people wait for me because I crash/my isp decides to go offline for a few hours or whatever.

In SP, it's quite different: I don't usually play the regular game with the intent to win. I do play competively (?) until I know I can win and it's just a matter of time and logistics. When that happens... let's say I often cheat to trigger a civil war in MY civ, and give units to hostile civs. After that, I rebuild my empire, until I get bored with it. That's what I find fun. Some people prefer to build cities so that every tile on the map is within a city's influence and terraform every single mountain/swamp/tundra/desert and have perfect cities.
Do they "play to win", just like "everybody"?
No, although I can imagine a military victory would be necessary.

	11-10-2001 22:21									#88
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Shiva: Play the game for 300 hours and get back to me.

And you point is???

	11-10-2001 22:24									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I could care less about MP. I understand the desire for it, but it's not even on my list of things that I want in a game anyway. I'm not going to NOT buy this game because you're not happy with it.

Sorry you're so disappointed.

	11-10-2001 22:25									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

I will not cancel my order.
I do not care.
I have better things to get worked up about.
I will never buy the expansion just for the MP.
I will buy the expansion because it is good.