20-11-2001 21:41									#181
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

One good thing about despotism is the ability to eliminate the foreign population through rushbuilding. The hard part is getting out of disorder to be able to do it.

I'm not sure this game is long for my hard drive. Last night I played the Babylonians (scientific and religious) with the hope of finally getting some techs to trade. Starting location was at the end of the continent, so I could only expand one way. Unlike other games, however, the ai seemed far away and I was able to expand pretty well without interference from anything other than barbs. I got 6 cities down and still had a swath of "unclaimed" land varying between 3 and 4 tiles wide between me and the nearest ai's. So far, so good, I thought.

I get contact with most of the civs on my own and trade anything I can, which isn't much. Constantly 4 to 6 techs behind. Anytime they ask for something, I give it. I buy contact with the two civs I haven't met, and give them anything I can. I manage to stay out of wars until I can get decently mobilized, with vet longbowmen and horses patrolling the unclaimed land and gunpowder on the way. I'm in the middle of the pack scorewise, but I can tell from the map that I have more land than anyone but the Russians, who have about the same amount of territory and don't border me anyway. Still in pretty good shape, I think.

The Germans plop a city down in the unclaimed territory near one of my cities. I was willing to let it stay if they gave into a demand for techs (it would have been assimilated eventually), but they didn't, so I took it. The Germans weren't neighbors anyway, so their response wasn't threatening. I keep giving into the other ai demands in an effort to maintain peace, b/c no one was allied with the Germans.

Just about the time I settle another city, the Aztecs start sending masses of whatever their two move unit is into the unclaimed land. They line up on my border and declare war. No demands, which is fine. I win enough early skirmishes to keep them at bay, but now my entire civ has to be producing horses and longbowmen at the expense of everything else. Next thing I know, the Persians and Aztecs ally and the Persians declare war also. By now, even the Germans have had enough time to get a few units into the area. Persian horses start approaching my most recently settled city, which has nothing but a spearman for defense, so I empty out another city that is inland about 6 squares away, but connected with roads, and send a longbowman and another spearman for support. Naturally, as soon as I do that, the Persian horses divert course and make a beeline for the empty city. Both of those cities had crappy production b/c of corruption (one or two shields each), so there was very little hope for them to withstand the wave of attackers approaching, and I couldn't send reinforcements from elsewhere b/c they had their hands full at home.

I decide that the only way out of this is to go on the offensive with the nearest Aztec city, take it and maybe get peace with them after taking the city. I send a stack consisting of two elite longbowmen and two veteran horses, followed by a stack of one elite and one veteran longbowman and one vet horseman against the city, which is size 2. Can I take the city? Hell no, and it wasn't defended with musketeers either.

Now, out of the blue, the Iroquois and Americans announce an alliance against me and declare war.

I had managed to rush a spearman in the empty city that the Persians diverted to, but he didn't last long and the Persians took the city. The second wave was now approaching the last city I had settled, and the Persians also had a unit left over to approach from the rear. I had three units in that city, though, and was hopeful I could hold them off until I had enough money to rush a musketeer there.

Now comes the confluence of three things that really pissed me off. First, I had been building a wonder since God knows when in one of the cities. Of course, every time I got close to something, the ai built it first. I switched production to different wonders 3 times, and finally got stuck trying to build the Lighthouse for lack of anything else to do. When I switched to that, I had 6 turns to go. One turn before finishing it, the ai builds it, and I get another 300-something shield cathedral. I mean for chrissake, can't these idiots at least convert the shields to cash or disperse the unused ones to your other cities? Second, I fortify a vet musketeer and vet longbowman on my saltpeter source. Two horses show up and kill the musketeer, followed by a stack of units who finish off the longbowman on the next turn. This is ridiculous, I can't take a city with the crap I threw at them and they kill a fortified vet musketeer with two horses? Finally, I lose the city with 3 defenders to two horses and a longbowman. See previous comment.

End of game 5.

I do not like:

1. The way the ai knows what's going on in your cities that are not in view of units. Obviously the ai knows where they are when you exchange maps, as I had done, but it has no reason to know the city is empty or underdefended if you change the defense structure after exchanging the maps. That's completely bogus. The ai should take its chances just like we do when we attack a city.

2. The effect of corruption on shields is ridiculous. My 6th and 7th cities were essentially worthless, producing 1 or 2 shields even at sizes 3 and 5. What's the point of even having cities like that. They can't produce enough shields to build anything to reduce corruption and they can't even produce enough shields to build units to help defense or the war effort. It's impossible to keep up with the ai when it throws swarms of units, even if they are inferior units, at your cities when your entire military must come from 4 cities. There is no way the ai suffers corruption like the human player. It's not like I had 30 cities on different continents. I had 7 cities on one continent, all connected by roads.

3. The wonders crap is, well, crap. In 5 games, the only wonder I've ever been able to build was Oracle and I'm sick of seeing shields wasted time and time again. Maybe part of my frustration has to do with the fact that I have NEVER gotten a great leader, despite winning at least 20 or 25 battles with elite units. Granted, I haven't played militaristic civs, but that shouldn't be the ONLY way to win.

Finally, although it doesn't yet constitute a "dislike", I question the level of unjustified ai aggression I've seen in the few games I've played. Unpredictable, irrational and aggressive behavior is fine to a degree, but if the game won't allow you to produce enough shields to defend yourself, what's the point? And does every civ have to think of itself as the Mongols?

This is at monarchy level. I guess what this boils down to is that if the only way to win this game is essentially to conquer the world by 1000 BC, I'm not interested.

	20-11-2001 22:41									#182
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Don't get too frustrated.

1. 20 or 25 combats with elite units. You need more than that.
Militaristic civs have given me better luck on leaders. And the advancements of more units in combat make more elite units.

2. Sucker the ai. When you're about to lose a city, especially a new one. Offer it to another AI. Good profits and sometimes mutual protection pacts, Prior make sure you empty out the units, (for consolidation to another defensive line or for taking it back) and sell off improvements. This will buy you some time. And sometimes the city will turn back to your side. I've sold one worthless city near my capital to the same civ 3 times.

3. Attack in mass, not just 4 units. Those early warriors that you build and replace with spearman for defense, move them up to the front to use as fodder. An extra attacker sometimes makes the difference. Your elite archers have problems with those spearmen and then the warrior marches up and destroys them.
If you attack enough that stretch of decent odds does hit.

4. I've stopped building more than a few settlers at the start of the game. Rush build a barracks in your cap and spew out a handfull of archers. They can't be stopped early. Take the cities at the beginning to start your empire.

5. Keep trying on the wonders, eventually it'll click. But I don't even start on one till I think the timing is right. Hoping they'll be enough avail to switch too. (I don't get that many either) but all it takes is a few leaders. And I never trade poly anymore, and as a result end up with HG more. The AI seems to generally ignore that path early. (unless you give them poly)

I could have written your post two weeks ago. I had the same frustrations, it will get better. But you have to be more aggressive early. Perfectionism can come later. Read the B*tch slap stratagies, they've been the most helpful. Even though it doesn't build the most trusting neighbors.

RAH

	20-11-2001 23:22									#183
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Bird I do not like: 1. The way the ai knows what's going on in your cities that are not in view of units. Obviously the ai knows where they are when you exchange maps, as I had done, but it has no reason to know the city is empty or underdefended if you change the defense structure after exchanging the maps. That's completely bogus. The ai should take its chances just like we do when we attack a city. i guess thats what scouts are for in a war..... think of enemy troops as armies and not one unit and then "knowing" makes sense, even if there are no real scout units with the troops! there are still flaws the the ai movement...... i have set up killing fields and the ai is more than happy to keep hammering his head at my distractions Generally i am not "taking chances" when i am attacking a city , but from the looks of things your invasion force was strong enough. Sometimes superior troops lose in war, although i feel at times this happens too often. The fact that the ai sends hordes of troops against your superior forces is admirable..... the ai is cheeky enough to take his chances and you must be prepared. I do find that weapons from a different era have a better chance of surviving the crazy ai onslaught, especially when i hit riflemen or infantry. 2. The effect of corruption on shields is ridiculous. My 6th and 7th cities were essentially worthless, producing 1 or 2 shields even at sizes 3 and 5. What's the point of even having cities like that. They can't produce enough shields to build anything to reduce corruption and they can't even produce enough shields to build units to help defense or the war effort. It's impossible to keep up with the ai when it throws swarms of units, even if they are inferior units, at your cities when your entire military must come from 4 cities. There is no way the ai suffers corruption like the human player. It's not like I had 30 cities on different continents. I had 7 cities on one continent, all connected by roads. i agree on the corruption as most will. Its annoying to do but IFE does work and will help your cause greatly. The one time your screwed is when you have alot of jungle.....otherwise the forest is your friend! A representative govt like Democracy is great and deals with corruption..... remember that culture and economics will win the game for you without having to conquer the world every game. I beeline to monarchy/ republic personally....right after i pitstop iron working so that i may take down an ai or greatly hamper two of them and build your cities closer together.... if you notice the ai likes his 5 point ring as his base..... virtually every pangea map has ai who build like this.... i prefer my cities on the second square diagonally in each direction two squares away from my captial as my ring of five..... the next four finish the ring inbetween the diagonal ones. Its nice to jumpstart your civ , corruption isn't bad because all the cities are real close to the capital. I build on hills wherever possible and obviously make terrain adjustments to each city (3 tiles) during this time i am warring or building for war and building culture..its almost essential to have a kicking food tile.... and that city capital or not must pump settlers and warriors.... 3. The wonders crap is, well, crap. In 5 games, the only wonder I've ever been able to build was Oracle and I'm sick of seeing shields wasted time and time again. Maybe part of my frustration has to do with the fact that I have NEVER gotten a great leader, despite winning at least 20 or 25 battles with elite units. Granted, I haven't played militaristic civs, but that shouldn't be the ONLY way to win. While i curse like trailer trash when the ai beats me to EVERY #@$#@$# wonder , it makes sense that the shields can't be carried over to building something that isn't available to be built anymore. I hurts to build a 509 shield cathedral so i feel your pain. A patch allowing shields to be converted to cash or half the value could be implemented for realisms sake and to give us a break. Its easier to receive a leader with militaristic civs i will grant you that.... but you shouldn't rely on one thing to guarrantee wonders. I finally built Sistine Chapel the other day with a leader.... anyways what was i saying..... i don't build alot of early wonders...... oh and bombard the city down a few siizes and then attack with your best troops..... they lose the bonus when its below certain sizes.... although i don't recall the exact number but i think its below 12 and 6 i tend to give the ai money 12- 18 every once in awhile during the middle ages to pacify them...only when they ask of course. Its not worth going to war over pride. any time the ai is at war with another one make an alliance or MPP against the other civ. This is essential planning for your war machine. If your the one they declare war on your in for a fight so make your adjustments accordingly. The three unit rule is no longer in effect and your military advisor lets you know just how many troops you can support for free and/or what its costing to support the war machine. Finally, although it doesn't yet constitute a "dislike", I question the level of unjustified ai aggression I've seen in the few games I've played. Unpredictable, irrational and aggressive behavior is fine to a degree, but if the game won't allow you to produce enough shields to defend yourself, what's the point? And does every civ have to think of itself as the Mongols? Whats wrong with the mongols i should be the one who is most upset about them being left out of the game in ancient times groups fought over resources all the time.... actually feels realistic.... This is at monarchy level. I guess what this boils down to is that if the only way to win this game is essentially to conquer the world by 1000 BC, I'm not interested. i used to feel the same way... give it a few more games....... if your going to build your land early you can't affoard big wars..... so pick and choose your friends wisely and keep your nose clean as much as possible. I hate to admit this, but this game has a one more turn feel for me....which is kewl because like you i feared i would play it for another month or so and then dismiss it. The game has flaws but there are ways around it and a parch or mod will make it a great game. There were a ton of flaws in civ2 as well and look how well that one did. Admittedly understanding all the differences from the tech tree and what buildings/wonders do is a learning curve. Other than that i find the game plays qute similar to civ2 but with more options, similar war craziness ala civ1 and harder to distinguish graphics.... Keep the faith Bird and read some of the posts in the civ3 section...not all the posts are from newbies to the civ scene Oh and anywhere where i might sound like i am being harsh towards your game, take with a coke and a smile

	20-11-2001 23:29									#184
	Got spare money?

well most of that was my responses...sorry i don't know what i did there....i thought i was writing between the questions

Nice points rah...... as per usual

	21-11-2001 00:26									#185
	Tired of ads?

One last point.

If we could dominate this game easily after just a few weeks of playing, I would have been deeply upset and it would have killed replayability. As it is, I'm still having a real challange and I'm still at the level below deity. The game looks like each game (while similar) will be different. And when we get real good we can try the civs with bad characteristics and bad UU. AND THEN WE CAN ELIMINATE ALL THE CHARACTERISTICS AND UUs for MP. (Or at least let us all choose which we want in any combination)



RAH

	21-11-2001 01:04									#186
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

As others have posted already , this game will be good for diplo gaming with some tweaks......

The replay factor is in the dispersement of the resources....

Bird the rush will come back to bite you if the enemy is too far away..i have had games where my rush just didn't work

...

	21-11-2001 01:29									#187
	Increase Your PM Length

ok I've been at it a week or so now.Played 3 games.All wins ..regent,regent,monarch.Have a deity game on the go...not so good.

My opinion is the game is ok.Its no civ2.There are some ai improvements but that ain't enough to make a great game.Its too simple for my tastes.Not easy...just too simple.Alot of the stuff I liked from civ2 is gone.I get the feeling that Firaxis listened more to SMACers and CtPers than civers

I will keep it installed and will play.We'll see what patches and expansions will bring us.
I give it a 7.5 of 10.

The spaceship is really easy to build.No configurations or timing with Fusion.Notta.Just build it and game over.There isn't even any flight time.

Ship chaining is still possible...sorta.Only 1 transfer per turn.But since there is no camels,that is enough for troops.The maps are kinda small anyways.

	21-11-2001 01:31									#188
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yeah, if it's too far away, you can't support it.

I play on medium size worlds so they're on top of you in 1000 years. Just what you want, early domina...I mean contact.

RAH

War4............DIPLO GAMES.........arrrrggggggg, I don't think you or I would last an hour in a diplo game, without getting P*ssed and just creaming someone.

	21-11-2001 01:38									#189
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hehe, just venting a bit, I guess. I think in the next game that I'm able to carve out a decent chunk of territory early on I'm going to focus on building roads to the nearby ai civs and see if the ensuing trade helps their demeanor towards me.

I can't uninstall this game b/c then I won't have anything to do, what with MP not working (anyone know what a "SMEDSNET.DLL" file is?).

	21-11-2001 02:57									#190
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Smash: I concur that they were probably listening to the SMAC and CtP folks too much (I hate those games). Why did they feel the need to cater to those knockoffs instead of the only real game, Civ2?

Bird: Please don't give up. What Rah said is right on. I would rather be gripping about how challenging it is instead of how easy it is. Civ3 is not Civ2 and it would require a different mindset and new strategies. Perhaps the best advice I can give is to start over at the easier levels with various civs and maps, to learn the strengths and weaknesses and then build up to the harder (more cheating) levels. That's the approach I am taking.

	21-11-2001 04:00									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Its 1957 now and I'm still puttering around. Hmm, getting bored with development now - I think I'll spend the rest of the game conquering everything in sight

BOOM!

Yes, that works - communism in 4 turns - I think I'll start by attacking my closest allies

	21-11-2001 05:31									#192
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by rah Yeah, if it's too far away, you can't support it. I play on medium size worlds so they're on top of you in 1000 years. Just what you want, early domina...I mean contact. RAH War4............DIPLO GAMES.........arrrrggggggg, I don't think you or I would last an hour in a diplo game, without getting P*ssed and just creaming someone.

Rah you know you can't teach an old dog new tricks....... but if the old tricks work then hey...... its all out the window.

i admit that diplo games are alot of fun if you have the right crowd. Its hard to consistently make the time in our busy lives and then of course there is all the connection problems that can occur.

However with the right written support diplo is a blast.

its just hard to curb your normal tendacy

i play normal maps too..anything bigger is too slow for my machine in the later years.....

Steve i too agree that the game seems more ctp and smac ish than civ2 and i find the only thing different in every game is where the resources are allocated and what i have to do to get them...

in time the archer/swordsman rush will fall to the wayside like the knight/crusader in civ2

this game is three weeks old and i am sure many of us will be spouting something different in the weeks to come.

Smash do you like the graphics.... i dislike the resolution and i find the graphics to be hard to make out.. i am sure mods will fix this
the maps seem way to unequal for MP...

i agree on the simplicity and wish they had used public instead of the smac terraformers er workers....

Trade can be awkward to set up and it takes away from the naval aspect of the game.

I hope firaxis supports the game and their fans with a patch or two and of course i hope that the genuises who make mods come up with a few gems

	21-11-2001 07:19									#193
	Tired of ads?

The animated units are pretty good.I spose some talented sort could improve them abit.
But..the terrain...well..its not awful.It looks a little rushed.Kind of like the art department was lolly gagging around when someone noticed their deadline was tomorrow type thing.
The mine icon definitely needs to go.All these little boxes on the map.....I don't know if you can make it look "good"

Some of the resource icons are...um.....whats the word I seek?

The cities look kinda blurry to me.

It still has the same awful look when it is covered in RRs.Only difference is now my civ is also covered with rrs for the extra food.

The wonder movie art thingies are not good.Thankfully they get bypassed after the first looksy.

The intro is good.I could see there was going to be a jet flyby about 2/3 of the way up.
The view city is much better but equally unimportant to game play as in civ2.

I like the sounds

	21-11-2001 09:05									#194
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Smash The wonder movie art thingies are not good.Thankfully they get bypassed after the first looksy.

What wonder art movies? I haven't seen any

	21-11-2001 16:18									#195
	Judas Kiss~~~~ Full PM-box? Change here!

Aggggghhhhh !!! I have been backstabbed and sold out by the one closest to me!! My wife has gone out and bought Civ 3 for me for our anniversary !!!!


Damn now what do I do, Take it back and hurt her feelings or just leave it collecting dust on the Shelf ????


Hmmmm Tempting !!!!!!

	21-11-2001 18:34									#196
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

RAS

One suggestion. Swallow the pride now and learn the game, or when they finally come out with MP (oh please, oh please, oh please) you'll be swallowing your pride when AH (and everyone else that's been playing for a year) is kicking your butt.


RAH

It's funny that our wifes will do things to force us to work around our own stubborness. Have fun playing.

	21-11-2001 19:01									#197
	Remove this text

ok i have almost mastered emperor level now...... the donut is by far the best way to go for building your cities....

a nomad is possible from a civ within the first three turns only i believe.....and you dont' need to be expansionistic to receive one.

when the game gives you a nomad its like handing down a death sentence for itself... i can't lose , no wonder they only give you a max of one a game

i have been playing the japanese and i am loving the quick revolutions and the ease of building cultural improvements.

a close source of iron spells disaster for my neighbors....

last game i played i eradicatd the indians 9 cities and then backstabbed the chinese and their 7 cities all with swords.... neither of those countries possessed iron

of course i razed all the crappy Indian cities in the jungle and what looks like afghanistan (desert plains) even though i was behind in tech after the first 5 turns, i negoatiated 5 techs from the indians and four from china

For the record , i am not playing raging hordes i will work on upgrading the barbs later....

	21-11-2001 19:31									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

ok ok, I slipped fellows, I opened the box.... And what did I find? No CD to play with !!! A lovely Manual and a lovely Crystal case to hold the CD , but no CD !!! Well I did the right thing and rushed down to EB and got them to replace it.

But Still I refuse to play ~!~~~! But I have begun reading the manual !!!!

	21-11-2001 20:11									#199
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Gee, we think similar. I'm playing the Japs at emperor. (second highest barb level)

Battle royal with the Chinese. Every turn they send 8 new swordsman into my territory, Me thinks they lack horses so they can't build riders. hahahhahhahahahaha
I have plenty.

Indian cities are falling to my culture. Babs have been b*tch slapped back the stone age.

Three turns from Chiv and Samuries. Time to B*tch slap those pesky Chinese. I'll drop into desp and rush build a few dozen and that should punch those swordsman into the deepest hell.

My only fear is that I'll see riders two turns prior.

RAH

	21-11-2001 21:06									#200
	Knees weakening Put an end to popups!

Well the manual starts of by stating that it is probalby out of date and I should read the ReadME.TXT file....

But that means isntalling the damn game, I guess installing the game is ok, as long as I dont play !!!!

	21-11-2001 21:09									#201
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Smash: Please download sn00py's graphics pack, I think he improved all of the terrain graphics tremendously. http://apolyton.net/getfile.shtml?h...iles/snoopy.zip

	21-11-2001 22:22									#202
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

RAS,
Give in to the Dark side.
You know you want to.
Do it noonan.


Did your wife really buy it or are you trying to save face?

Life is easier when you have no pride (like me.)

Rich

	21-11-2001 23:14									#203
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Funny, but this is one of the best threads I've seen on Civ3. Why didn't I think to look here before? Thx for excellent posts.

ps I promise not to tell...shhh

Zap

	22-11-2001 00:03									#204
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Rah two great minds think alike.....makes me wonder how Ming is doing with the game

Admittedly in the long run perhaps other civ attributes are better....after all how many revolutions do we have a game...... but the abiltiy to cut down anywhere from 4-7 turns of anarchy per switch is vastly underated.

This is doubled by the fact that one needs fast expansion and has limitted time to build the necessary city enhancements and an impressive war machine for border expansion.

With corruption being what it is, those attributes seem ugly when looked at under a microscope.

Religious makes culture easier....which for me is important as i am rushing a temple in ever city other than in my capital. my escort takes care of the martial law and once i hit size two its a temple or barracks...depending on which brain is working at the time.

Scientific is nice for the bonus techs...... but i am now finding techs are not that hard to come by when your military has a strong foundation.

Militaristic seems to give upgrades easier, which then pose the opportunity for more leaders...though this is not always the case.... as well i seem to be able to get a nomad if i pop a hut within the first three turns.... never had one come later than that.

Expansionistic i used to love for the scout..... but i dislike how scouts can only.......... SCOUT...they have no ability to defend or take cites which means barbs get me and then i am toast.

Your better off playing as the aztecs with their Jaguar warriors for the double move.... they are militaristic and religous but their UU wins way to early for a golden age to be usefull

The Japanese are the same as the Aztecs but their UU comes around the time of chivalry......a much better age for Golden times.....and usually as i am having my first real big war....or world war 1..... (a few centuries to early for realism, so i would generally think of it as the Crusades

Its imperative to have your golden age while in a representative govt or monarchy at the very least.... its just not much help in despot.

I have found armies to be a waste of a leader unless you have an army of tanks Therefore i try to get my first leader ASAP but if i miss out early its ok to get one ....say around Theology

Culture and warfare go hand and hand. Its amazing what early temples do for your boarders and how they hem in an ai and allow you to dictate the terms.....

The nomad spells disaster for the ai..... they can't keep up with you if you get one so plant him quickly and close to your ai...

I don't believe you need to wander to block a civ off, your better to build close together and "take" land , than to try and block the ai by building right beside him. Let your culture absorb his poorly placed cities and make sure yours always have at least on space connected or one space apart from another so when they both grow you don't have too much overlap....

On a side note....you can afford minimal science research as you will just ask for techs once you have cleared a little breathing room....beelining for iron working and or horse back is smart for ealry warfare.

BTW doesn't the horse rock...it reminds me of the Knight of civ2 and the chariot of civ1 with the bonus of retreat which wasn't an option in the first two games of this series.

I have noticed that the same units tend to get into long sieges , but if you mix a few horsemen into the fray, their "different" form of attack seems to freak out the ai

	22-11-2001 00:09									#205
	Put an end to popups!

pride? what's that? a civ2 strategy?


and you guys stop playing! its going to take me 'til MP comes out just to catch up to where you are now


ColdWizard = the current Civ2 MP doormat and the future Civ3 MP doormat

	22-11-2001 00:10									#206
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Things are looking up a bit, although not by reason of anything creative on my part. In last night's game, I just decided to follow the early warfare route and eliminate the nearest civ to me come hell or high water. Which I did, and got a bonus to boot -- the Persians were the only other civ on a decent sized continent (medium size world). I have the continent to myself and have gotten it entirely within my borders with about 15 or 16 cities. The problem now is that I'm lagging considerably in the sciences, but I think I'll be able to overcome that now that the infrastructure is starting to fall into place. The "feel" of this game is also different b/c, apart from the now-departed Persians, I have only made contact with the Zulus, who foolishly put a couple of cities down before the whole island came within my borders. So no real diplomacy has been seen in this game. That should change soon as a couple of galleys are about ready to sail.

I'm still not particularly fond of the early warfare route, but give credit where its due -- it sure works.

	22-11-2001 00:48									#207
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by rah Did your wife really buy it or are you trying to save face? Life is easier when you have no pride (like me.) Rich

Yes she truly bought it for me, I accidently pointed it out to her one day at the shops and mentioned something about lack of MP , but she obviosuly didnt listen and thought she was doing the lovely thing, not realsing how her actions betrayed my strong stance on "No Civ 3 till MP!!"

	22-11-2001 01:21									#208
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Oh no!


Ming and Rah were the first to go and now more falter. War4ever, AH and even Rasputin have fallen for Civ3's wicked charm.


Who's next to fall!?


I'm still holding out, but the temptation....OH THE TEMPTATION!!

	22-11-2001 01:41									#209
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

OK, Bird you seem to be going in the right direction. BUT, you don't finish them off, you leave them to be your B*tch. An eliminated civ can provide you nothing. A weakened vassal will give you almost anything you ask for. Especially after some nation has come by and made contact. The reason you're that far behind in techs is the lack of trading them with everyone off the island. We're not sophisticated enough strat wise to compete in science development with the AI yet. Keep that week AI around, the other AI will probably deal with him better than with you. Then you just take it from them. Starting on an island with only one other civ is probably not helpful. (it certainly wasn't for me in one of my earlier aborted attempts, since I experienced the same problem) You need at least two other civs early to interact with and three is probably optimal. (since even if you screw up you can probably handle three alternating wars at once.) The 'war then rape them for peace' cycle seems to work well with three civs. Just don't count on them to sign an MP pacts against the other two.

Coldwizard Great line. Especially after checking out the final position after our last game. Wha Happened? Please tell me your second settler was killed by barbs.

War4, golden age too early, my exact reasoning for going with the Japanese instead. I've had two leaders already and just getting ready to start my Golden age, so I expect another leader or two before the game ends.

And good observation on that nomad. In all my games or aborted starts I've only gotten one nomad, and it was in the second or third turn(and I wasn't an expansionist that game). wonder if there's something to it.

That fist scout is also overrated. Can't do anything but scout, and the first hut with barbs, and bye bye any advantage. I never really built any other scouts because on the medium size worlds that I've been playing on, the land grab is over early, unless there's a small island somewhere. (and I've never found them first)

Rich

And Cap, I never said I wouldn't. I've always claimed that I would buy it quick to learn in hopes of making suggestions for changes/fixes for future MP release.
Laking any pride helps.

Ras, I was just teasing

	22-11-2001 02:47									#210
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

seemsa good plan is to get Iron Working asap.Then get your iron source.Road,colony preferred.
build 2-3 cities and get them roaded.Build barracks.Build swordsman or Persian immortals if applicable.Attack in numbers.Do not raze cities..keep forces just outside in case of defection.Cut roads to other enemy cities(this is very important) and have workers following your army with road building to immediately bring in your luxuries and resources.
Let the ai do your expanding for you.They will even build wonders for you.
standard maps landmasses and the ai will provide you with 10-12 cities.BE PATIENT in your attacks.

Terrain DOES effect offensive attacks.Or it sure seems to.This is different than civ2.