10-11-2001 08:26									#91
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well despite most of this being Off Topic and belonging in Civ 3 Forum, I for one am glad Ming hasnt moved it as it gives a Civ 2 MPers view on the game, even though MarkG stated early on that the Civ 2 Community couldnt talk of Civ 3 here but must do so over at civ 3... (Damn him)... OVer at Civ 3 forum it would simply be drowned out by all the Newbies to civ !!

One thing that puzzles me is seeing reports of the OCC successes already, is it that easy to do, or are the reports exagerated.

Also I read soemwher ein the civ 3 forum of a strategy called the "Wombat" strategy, something to do with trading empty citys to enemeies then attacknig them immediatly with your troops you left on outsklirts of citys... Have you much knowledge of this ??

Thanks Guys !@!!!

	10-11-2001 13:00									#92
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: One thing that puzzles me is seeing reports of the OCC successes already, is it that easy to do, or are the reports exagerated.

The fact that OCC has become easier seems to be due to the improved diplomacy model employed. When you keep trading and gifting techs to other civs they will stay friendly for the entire game. and as you're no military threat you can go concentrate on playing the diplogame. This isn't really a bad thing as OCC still seems to be a challenge. The higher levels haven't been mastered.....yet!

quote: Also I read soemwher ein the civ 3 forum of a strategy called the "Wombat" strategy, something to do with trading empty citys to enemeies then attacknig them immediatly with your troops you left on outsklirts of citys... Have you much knowledge of this ??

This seems to be true, and the trick is quite simple: give an undefended city to the AI and take it right back. I've seen this trick in other games as wel so it isn't really new. If we could gift cities to the AI in civ1 or 2 we would already have done this years ago.

IMO the option of giving cities to the AI should be removed. This option is easily abused.

	10-11-2001 15:45									#93
	Still don't have the game... Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

...but I'm intrigued by your discussions about it.

The "trade with city and take it back next turn"-strategy is what Xin Yu referred to in his post.

Totally agree with you Rasputin, please keep this thread here!

I'm also intrigued by the culture concept, hope you're wrong about it being unbalancing, War. Peace loving, enlighted rulers like myself need a counterforce to the Mongolian hordes...

Carolus

Last edited by Carolus Rex on 10-11-2001 at 15:54

	11-11-2001 01:26									#94
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war: "its not worth killing the ai early"?!?!? That's blasphemous, my old friend.

Inasmuch as I am trying to get myself banned over there, just by participating in this thread makes staying around worthwhile.

	11-11-2001 12:32									#95
	Tired of ads?

Well, just came back and played several hours. You can't chop down trees to help wonders, although the strategy guide said so. The only way to beat AIs to wonders is to build your capital on river, build a lot of workers to work the terrain, then add the workers to the capital -- you can make it size 12. Adjust luxury rate so that it won't go disorder (if you happend to have a luxury special you'll be able to solve this problem easily). You'll be able to build the pyramids in less than 20 turns.

Barbarians is a problem. After you see the first barb, send a defending unit towards that direction and fortify him on a mountain or hills. I have an impression that barbs only appear on terrains you've already explored but fogged from your current view. Put warriors on highlands will probably alleviate barb problem.

	11-11-2001 22:08									#96
	What are you guys' take on corruption? Increase Your PM Length

Seems to be a killer in the game, according to none less than Oedo:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...;threadid=33364

Simply an unbalancing feature or is it a flaw/bug that you can't curb it?

Carolus

	12-11-2001 00:24									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

of course I'm not 100% sure but I kinda think that the type of civ you are may have an effect on corruption.AND map size.Game#1 I picked England,just because I saw someone posted that playing England would be impossible ..they are an expansionist something and corruption was not terrible.Currently I have 45>50 cities and corruption is minimal."We love" helps alot with corruption.So do courthouses and a forbidden palace.

The whole trade system is different..yet the same.We now have 3 main types of resources.Luxury,strategic and the ones we are familiar with.The ones that we can see the benefit of when we put our workers on them.
Luxury resources are what gives our "trade routes" so to speak.They provide luxuries to every city connected by road,harbor or airport.So you can reduce YOUR alottment to luxry taxes.
Resources are what allow you to build certain stuff.Simply discovering a technology does not allow you to build new units.For example,you can get Gunpowder,but without a supply of saltpeter iirc,you can't build musketmen.If you have saltpeter in your empire..great..if not you must trade for it.I just setup a route of saltpeter with a civ.Now I have 20 turns to upgrade all my pikeman to musketman.

food and sheild support have all been lumped into gold support.This is different yet the same.The more gold you have,the larger the army you can have.This would obviously favor the representaive governments..except we now have "war weariness" instead of unhappiness by units in the feild.The effect of this on demo and republic is huge..if your war is "your fault".Even on lower levels you get unrest.Any conquered cities are in a state of resistance and unhappieness.If you click on an unhappy citizen,they will tell you why they are unhappy.You must sign peace treaties to quell unhappies in conquered cities.They complain "stop this war against our motherland".

Xin is correct.Chopping and planting doesn't work on wonders or the palace.Maybe..I was chopping and planting to rush along a university with the idea of changing to the Magellans wonder.At a certain point,I could no longer switch to the wonder.It was NOT another city building it btw.I also could not switch off to a palace.Perhaps after a certain point,you cant change?

The free money bug DOES NOT WORK in my game.I get a popup "not enough gold are you nuts?" type thing.Maybe I do it wrong..possible..don't want or need it anyways.

So far,overall..it is quite good.The food system is not so good.Growth is too fast with the tiny foodboxes.But since there is no we love growth...I have found myself with nothing to really build alot.This doesn't usually happen in civ2 until very late.....
The animated units are neat.The evil laugh when they win is great.They yawn..all kinds of stuff.I definetly had to turn on the colored circle around their feet to easily identify which were who's

It takes some getting used to the fact that many units move onto the square they are attacking if they win.Left many units hanging like this.Combat is not just a matter of moving units against a city.Actual planning is taking place for me.Early knights are great as they can attack and move away.They also back off when attacked if they are going to lose.

The citizen icons are not so good in that it is difficult to tell who is happy and who is not in the domestic advisor screen.Its easy to tell in the city screen,but in the DA screen they are jammed too close to tell.That is pretty easy to change.

Another minor double edged peeve is the ai expands..better.The problem is:even on huge maps(which are not that huge btw)..the land is filled quite quickly making exploration a waste of time to a degree.Exploring is/has always been a big part of the fun....course I played with at least 8 civs.Less civs would proabaly leave some land unsettled for abit....oh ya you will fight for land to settle at some point...

It reminds me of civ2 in that I trashed the demo after 10 minutes.Then I came back and had another look.The more you play and learn,the better it gets.The game is very familiar yet very different.It is civing.Alot of my turn time is spent in the foregn advisor screen.Wheeling and dealing.This is much better than in civ2.

There is much to learn.

I have had NO tech problems AT ALL.

In its current form,the game would HAVE to be simul for MP.


ps.this city governor problem is non exsistant if you set everything to NO.Cities build and report in the same way as civ2.Only difference is if you set a city to build a unit such as a pikeman,when it is finished the city will not neccessarily keep building pikes.But when the pike activates it quite is easy to make your build order adjustments.
....and you can't keep building wonders after it has been built.You can use the palace as a holder.
If you manage your cities like you did in civ2,you will not have any problems.

Last edited by Smash on 12-11-2001 at 00:41

	12-11-2001 04:55									#98
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Nicely put, Smash. That echos alot of my views as well. I told Sten about this thread, so hopefully he'll drop by.

	13-11-2001 09:53									#99
	Got spare money?

I am England(orange)



the ai expands....and this is on the 3rd lowest level.I got a feeling it is mimicking the player.After some heavy map trading I can see ai cities completely surrounded by dark.Kinda like they popped up.
Its like mp in that if you don't settle it by a certain time then you will have to take it.Land is gobbled up pretty quick.

btw-the Darwin's equivalent(Theory of Evolution) doesn't let you pick your freebies.I can see some planning here.

	15-11-2001 08:54									#100
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Saw it in the shops today. Didn't buy it

	15-11-2001 10:40									#101
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admittedly...... the ai is quite good at expansion.... in one of my games..... i couldn't take the last city of a nation...the iroquois IIRC and they grew to about 10 cities eventuallly....only to lose them all to me later....as it was the capital i took out....

i can't remember how to establish embassies if i don't do it right when i discover writing has made wheeling and dealing a bit more difficult...

i am playing on emperor level now..... and having a tough go with it...but trying to remember its a long game.......with patience comes the spoils

for the first time today i had three leaders show up..... and i don't know about you guyz..but now that i play the persians... my army is almost unstopable!!!!

admittedly i am not mirco managing much and i send my workers off in weird directions as i hit wrong keys and mistake them for something else.........

if the ai fears you..diplomacy is sweet and easy.... take whatever you want..... they won't do anything about it..... and they are quick for cease fires....

the FP is a lifesaver..... and for me pyramids is key..... quick expansion keeps me close to my larger rivals....

oh and a mod for territory borders... make mine have electric fence its the only way to keep the natives out

	15-11-2001 11:49									#102
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

you make embassys by right clicking on your cap.You will see it in the menu.

	15-11-2001 12:46									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Thanks Smash.... its the little things that stump me....oh and does anyone else experience problems with ancient armies......


Mine are lousy..its easier to take cities with single units at least a few together that is

	16-11-2001 00:14									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Xin, I tried your strat of starting as the French, (renamed the Ferrets, of course) and made a beeline for literacy and built the GL within 14 turns of getting it. I only spit out one settler from my cap and never saw any from huts so it slowed my down expanding. (I guess I'll just have to take those extra cities)

Upon getting the GL I got like 5 techs and they've been flowing free since. What a difference. Quite the money tree from trading with the AI's. If I covet a wonder I just don't trade one of the prereqs.

To me, all the increased need for diplomacy is a drastic improvement to the game. In CivII, you could play the whole game and just ignore all contact with the AI's and romp and stomp without problems (unless you were into winning by just demanding tribute). In this version, it is not a good idea to ignore the AI's. It would be a tough win. I just wish that the trade advisor wasn't always so acurate. It does take a little of the fun out of it.

Rich

	16-11-2001 00:52									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by rah I just wish that the trade advisor wasn't always so acurate. It does take a little of the fun out of it.

I have to agree... while it does make negotiations so simple, it does remove the mystery. With the trade advisor, I know I've always offered the "right" thing or amount... I only wish you could have the same information when buying a car

	16-11-2001 01:49									#106
	Or a computer! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Do you like the game, Ming? Is it as addictive as ol' Civ 2 was (is)?

Carolus

	16-11-2001 02:00									#107
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Bird I bought it, only to find out I need a new computer to play it. Bummer.

Guess what I got.

	16-11-2001 02:11									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Until we figure out all the game mechanics, I would have to say yes it is just as addictive.

BUT, there are a couple of real annoying aspects that may really hurt replayablity enjoyment. So the jury is still out. I'll let you know after a few more times.

Corruption. I want it to be tough, but it is just ridiculous. A minor tweak is necessary. When you have a large city, not that far from you capital and you're suffering over 95% corruption even after you've built the courthouse, celebrating, and in Democracy, something needs to be tweeked. I mean even 66% wouldn't bother me. But the current levels are so unrealistic that it sucks some of the fun out. And no realism isn't the end all but this is way overdone.

Combat. This is just a minor whine so don't call me a wimp. With the removal of firepower, there are a few too many of the old phalanx beats battleship type fights. Now quantity over quality is more important. Granted, if you use combined tactics......... bombardment/mobile/brute force it resolves the issue, but you shouldn't have to when a it's only a couple of spearmen defending. This can be worked around so it's not as important to me as the Corruption issue. And in fact sometimes it's fun to work around this one. It just makes you laugh a few times. It seems that the AI gets the better end of this one, but I may have just not played enough and am a little paranoid.

Borders. The AI can order me to withdraw my units or face war, but they will agree to remove their troops again and again and still not do it. Again this is more minor and I can deal with it.
If you've got real good relations with and equal or inferior civ, they do have a tendency to actually go along with it more often then not. But a lot of the expansionist civs just ignore it.

RAH

	16-11-2001 02:14									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Bird Guess what I got.

A NEW CAR?


Good, we expect you to start contributing positive items to this thread. Good to see you joining the club. Hopefully you won't stop playing MP.

Rich

	16-11-2001 02:26									#110
	Thanks! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

After talking to Smash via ICQ I got the impression that the game is more fun for those who like the war aspect of civ. Without having to think about (and setting up) trade routes, is there much to do during the turns for peaceful rulers like myself ? Or is "hit enter and wait for the completion of city improvements" what it's about if you want to skip wars?

I fear I'm gonna miss my camels!

Carolus

	16-11-2001 02:50									#111
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yep, I installed the game on my new car and played last night for the first time. Started a game at deity and quit after about 45 minutes to go back to monarchy level. The interface and gameplay differences between this and Civ II are fairly significant and it seems clear to me that I'll need to gain familiarity with the new game before playing at deity level.

Anyway, I played to about 500 AD before calling it a night. My only strategic observation so far is that it seems granaries will be very important for the early years, since it will help alleviate the costs of rushbuilding.

I also don't like the fact that you can't save shields that were accumulated towards a wonder when the ai beats you to the wonder and you can't change to another wonder. I knew when it was first reported that this happens that I wouldn't like it, and now that it's happened to me I dislike it even more.

This will not distract from MP. See you Saturday night.

	16-11-2001 02:53									#112
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by rah Borders. The AI can order me to withdraw my units or face war, but they will agree to remove their troops again and again and still not do it. Again this is more minor and I can deal with it. If you've got real good relations with and equal or inferior civ, they do have a tendency to actually go along with it more often then not. But a lot of the expansionist civs just ignore it. RAH

According to the strategy guide AI cannot occupy your road without your agreement. So if you build roads along the boarder nobody can sneak in peacefully. Haven't tested it myself. Next time, when my starting position is on the tip of the land mass, I'll build a small city and have roads from my capital blocking its outlet, then trade the city to an AI civ. Could be another money cow.

	16-11-2001 02:54									#113
	Put an end to popups!

A few more hours' worth of play reminds me of a quote from Brian Reynolds in an interview right after Civ 2 was released:

quote: My experience with tactical combat systems in Civ-like games has been that it encourages everyone to stack all of their units in one square and then go tromping around the map terrorizing each others' cities.

It seems to me that the attacker will have the advantage in this game - he can concentrate a huge force at a single point, while the defender is spread out trying to protect his entire empire. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

	16-11-2001 02:59									#114
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Oh, there's lots for non war mongers.
I like war though

If you can stay ahead of the computer in either tech, resources, or luxury items.....you can spend your turns wheeling and dealing with the AI. If you have contact with a civ that no one else has, you can play whore for him. (eventually a big bully will come along and demand that contact instead of squashing you like a bug, but what the hey). It is more fun when all the AI haven't met yet, and you can play middle man. The AI trades with itself very well so the window of opportunity to trade things can be real small.

But if you are dealing from a weak hand, the AI will try to rip you off. But that's kinda fun too.

Rich

	16-11-2001 03:07									#115
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DaveV It seems to me that the attacker will have the advantage in this game - he can concentrate a huge force at a single point, while the defender is spread out trying to protect his entire empire. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

i have noticed the ai always has a large army of units....whether they are powerfull on their own is irrelevant...en masse they can be a real annoying.

instead of one large army attacking one spot.....i use three moderate armies to attack.....and leave a few in points where i think the ai might launch a counter

i too dislike inferior units winning via civ1 perhaps a patch will fix this..

i have been relying heavily on leaders for my wonders.... as i tend to spit out alot of settlers from my cap which always has great food...

an agressive hunt for barbs will help your quest for elite units....which makes getting leaders from rival wars easier.

my first wonder is pyramids...but i may try the GL as a change of pace.....

	16-11-2001 03:08									#116
	Re: Thanks! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex After talking to Smash via ICQ I got the impression that the game is more fun for those who like the war aspect of civ. Without having to think about (and setting up) trade routes, is there much to do during the turns for peaceful rulers like myself ? Or is "hit enter and wait for the completion of city improvements" what it's about if you want to skip wars? I fear I'm gonna miss my camels! Carolus

The gratification of delivering freight and getting x amount of gold is gone, but I think the civ 3 way may ultimately be better, if for no other reason than it's more involved. You do have to "think" about trade routes b/c you have to set up the roads or harbors to implement them plus you have to get the other civ to agree to trade. From what I can tell, you can certainly still be primarily a "peaceful" player (I have been in my only game), but you need to at least be prepared for strategic wars. But that won't hurt you, CR, a little warring is good for the soul now and again.

	16-11-2001 04:04									#117
	Barbarian/AI circus Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Suddenly thought about something. Haven't tested yet but it may work.

Those stupid AIs were programmed to go to your undefended cities. Here's a way to make fun of them. Build a colony on mountain and park a spearman next to it. Those barbs will move towards your colony. Before it can start attacking, move the spearman to the colony and empty one of your nearby cities. The suckers will move back towards the cities. Then you throw a ball from the city to the colony and say: catch! the barbs will come back to the colony again.

	16-11-2001 04:04									#118
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Bird Started a game at deity and quit after about 45 minutes to go back to monarchy level.

There's been alot of that going on.

I agree with rah about the minor annoyances. I'm wondering though, have any of you used the editor to help mitigate the effects of unbalanced combat or rampant corruption?

	16-11-2001 04:29									#119
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

well, I've taken my first run thru into the modern ages and there is a gem in this game:Strategic Resources.
The constantly changing situation requires lots of diplomacy and/or military action.
I had a heck of a time securing oil and rubber.You can't build any modern units without it.Rubber was gained thru some very expensive bartering.I finally had to agree to 2 advanced techs,1000 gold and 200 per turn,Ouch.However it is easy to take advantage and sell techs to get it all back.Some self policing is needed here.Also you can rack up a decent amount of gold by just offering your world map.Up to 20 gold and/or 3>4 per turn is possible just for maps.Times 5,6,7 etc civs.
Oil had to be secured thru military action after my supply dried up.There is a "mid east" region in my game where all the oil has appeared.All the civs have a small city or 2 there.A transport full of tanks and infantry cleared my oil shortage
You need aluminum and uranium for other stuff and SS parts.Uranium hasn't appeared,but by some crafty trade embargos I have cornered the world's supply of aluminum ...for now.These trade embargos never seem to end.....can't find a way to end them thru diplomacy...
This part of the game would be great for mp games.Especially the dip games.No way you can play mp with special attributes.Golden Age would be terribly unbalanced for several civs...like the Persians and their immortal unit.Just 1 victory with said unit triggers a golden age......

It's just lacking a little on the trade side.Its been greatly simplified from civ2.Civ is supposed to be complicated.

	16-11-2001 06:55									#120
	Increase Your PM Length

Smash...... i have been having problems in a current game where all the ai's gang up on me.... i actually got knocked out of the game Not only was it an alliance against me, it was an alliance to destroy me...

Every city was razed to the ground..... never had a defeat this bad since civ1

This was at deity level..... seems i still need to master emperor a bit more