16-11-2001 09:40									#61
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Even a single civil liberty being violated would be too much.

	16-11-2001 09:47									#62
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so if John Doe has access to 50 urban assault weapons in his basement, and plans to take his gang buddies and wage war on the city police, and the police come with a warrant to search the house for drugs only...and when they get to the basement, discover the assault weapons...instead of making the arrest, now the policemen have to pretend they didn't see what they saw, go back to HQ, file a report that they need a search warrant, wait until it is processed, go back, and arrest him for having the guns?

Wouldn't it be much easier to arrest him on the spot and prevent the possible carnage that would break out while all that crap work is being processed?

There is such thing as an emergency warrant, but it is not always given or easily aquired and may still require paperwork.

	16-11-2001 09:52									#63
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Orange -

quote: I don't mind the tightening of 4th amendment rights in most cases, especially during a national crisis or time of emergency.

Any time politicians want to "tighten" our 4th Amendment freedoms it's because of some "crisis".

quote: I mean, if you've got nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about, and if you do have something to hide, than I don't think it's a problem to seize the illegal items (especially weapons).

I'll have to re-read the 4th Amendment. I don't recall the Framers telling people we don't need protection from searches and seizures because if we have nothing to hide, then we have no reason to worry. I can tell the authorities have never searched your property for drugs. They have this nasty habit of destroying the property they are searching. After sinking a yacht looking for drugs, the government rep told the owner and the Supreme Court(and the rest of us) that he had no cause for a lawsuit because insurance will cover the damage (as if private insurance companies are now required to provide government a$$holes free coverage).

quote: As long as it isn't based on race/religion...I don't have a problem with it.

I don't understand these exceptions. You're willing to "tighten" our rights because of the current situation, but not based on race or religion? The people we are fighting happen to be Arab Muslims.

quote: That would be more of an invasion of 1st amendment rights, I think, if it were based on race, religion, etc.

If you can ignore the Amendments you want out of the way, don't we all get to throw a few out?

quote: A more conservative interpretation of 4th amendment rights, IMO, is a good thing.

So there are liberal and conservative versions of the 4th Amendment? I thought there was only one, the Framer's version.

quote: I'm quite in favor of strict gun control as well, so I guess we just disagree on this one across the board

That takes care of the 2nd and 4th, any other amendments you want to discard?

	16-11-2001 10:57									#64
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I bet he doesn't like the 10th, either

	16-11-2001 11:09									#65
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Even a single civil liberty being violated would be too much.

4,500 people in New York had their liberties violated in a much more fundamental way. So what are you going to say while people whoop and holler about the gummint takin' away our rights, while these cocksuckers openly announce their intent to wage nuclear and chemical warfare on the civilian populace of the US?

You're awfully willing to toss away other American's lives, which is a far more onerous invasion of liberty than any yet proposed by the US government.

These cocksuckers out there (and infiltrated into the US) could give a flying **** less for your pedantic debates. They laugh at how US intelligence and law enforcement is so hog-tied that it's been rendered virtually impotent by all this abstract whining about civil liberties.

Meanwhile, while we have people who have stated outright their intent to wage nuclear and chemical war against us, you ***** and whine about a military tribunal which does not yet exist, about pedantic questions on the interpretation of what is an "unreasonable" search or siezure under the Fourth Amendment, and about the function of National Guard troops acting in a constitutionally permitted role (nationalization in time of public emergency) at facilities with Federal jurisdiction (the function of airports is interstate transportation and commerce)

Everyone else can bend over and take it up the ass at the terrorists convenience, as long as you aren't "affected" by an order authorizing the executive branch to do something in the future that may never be done, and won't in any conceivable likelihood be done to you.

	16-11-2001 11:21									#66
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Just a little catch, MtG, from the BBC: "while the English-language newspaper carries a clear message from Bin Laden that he has access to such weapons, he makes no such claim in an Urdu-language version of the interview."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1648572.stm

"whine about a military tribunal which does not yet exist"

You mean we can't complain that Bush is putting it together? For that matter, we shouldn't be able to complain about pending legislation, either, because it's not yet law.

"about pedantic questions on the interpretation of what is an "unreasonable" search or siezure under the Fourth Amendment"

It's the Constitution. If they really want to change it, they can make an Ammendment. If it passes, by all means, search us.

"and about the function of National Guard troops acting in a constitutionally permitted role"

I agree with you on this one - at a time when paranoia runs rampant, if it makes people feel better, it might be worth it. If they're still there six months from now, though, people are just going to be annoyed.

"as long as you aren't "affected" by an order authorizing the executive branch to do something in the future that may never be done"

Many of us have criticized the Taliban for murdering women simply for showing their faces, for performing public executions in the middle of soccer matches, for outlawing music under the penalty of death. But it doesn't affect us, so why should we care? Not to equate the military tribunal to what the Taliban did, but if people are being unfairly affected by policies we can change, can speak out upon, then it's our moral obligation to do so. (I believe it was you who said that if we capture someone overseas and bring them here ourselves, they can be tried under the tribunal, and I agree. But I do have some doubts about its effectiveness over the civilian courts, its jurisdiction, and its sources of precedent and law.)

	16-11-2001 11:38									#67
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Ahhh yes thats 100% badass Bob for you

Move to germany to get drunk you commie

	16-11-2001 11:51									#68
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We have to speak out about it now, or we may not be able to later.

	26-11-2001 03:33									#69
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No one has any respect for the American presidency. And who do we have to thank? Why are best bresident ever! Mr. William Jefferson Clinton.

	26-11-2001 04:44									#70
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"A" and "B".

You boys would absolutely freak out over rationing of things like gas, and other various items, wouldn't you?
Sometimes one has to forego civil liberties for a while, to insure they last forever.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 26-11-2001 at 04:53

	26-11-2001 05:52									#71
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I'd go absolutely ****ing APESHIT over rationing.

	26-11-2001 06:15									#72
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What makes you so special, David ?
I don't ask with maliciousness.
You need to think through what you're saying more though.
If I have to curtail gas use, for instance, so that the military can accomplish their mission, so be it.

	26-11-2001 06:51									#73
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'd go absolutely ****ing APESHIT over rationing.

Jeez, go thing you didn't live during the war and *dare* make sacrifices, eh?

	26-11-2001 07:08									#74
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Dave...you can keep your ideals and philosophy. But in addition to that...why not give something back. This is a great country that people died for. You are so lucky to be in a place with the Constition. Put that energy into serving your country. (You can still think rationing and searches are wrong...but you'll be putting your energy towards a more useful cause.)

	26-11-2001 08:12									#75
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I agree with most of what David has written wrt civil liberties, blah, blah, blah. I've argued about this enough since 9/11.

Ah, something new...

quote: 2) What other actions by Mr. Washington do you find objectionable? Not looking for a debate on the subject, I'm just interested in hearing more of your POV on the subject.

1. Massive theft of Amerindian lands
2. The Fugitive Slave Act
3. The first protective tariff
4. The First Bank of the US
5. The Whiskey Excise Tax
6. Attempting to crush the slave rebellions in Haiti

And I'm sure there's some other stuff I can't recall at the moment...

So Washinton was a bastard.

	26-11-2001 10:55									#76
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MtG -

quote: 4,500 people in New York had their liberties violated in a much more fundamental way.

So if I murder someone the government can ignore our civil liberties too?

quote: So what are you going to say while people whoop and holler about the gummint takin' away our rights, while these cocksuckers openly announce their intent to wage nuclear and chemical warfare on the civilian populace of the US?

I'll be on the side of those whooping and hollering about our rights. Will you be on the side of the government - the Democans - which has created the motives for these people to attack Americans? Yeah, I really need you and your government to "protect" me when it was the government that exposed us to these attacks.

quote: You're awfully willing to toss away other American's lives, which is a far more onerous invasion of liberty than any yet proposed by the US government.

He's a Libertarian, we would not have been attacked if Libertarians were running the government. So it's really stupid to accuse David of throwing away the live's of Americans when it was the Democans and their supporters (you?)who gave us this situation with their foreign policies. Yeah, go look in a mirror before throwing around your absurd accusations.

quote: These cocksuckers out there (and infiltrated into the US) could give a flying **** less for your pedantic debates.

So what do they care about? "Our" foreign policies? Get a ******* clue!

quote: They laugh at how US intelligence and law enforcement is so hog-tied that it's been rendered virtually impotent by all this abstract whining about civil liberties.

"Abstract whining"? Tell that to the Japanese American victims who were put in cages during WWII because not enough people engaged in "abstract whining" then. And just what civil liberty has David defended here that would have led to the capture of these terrorists had it not existed? This happened (aside from foreign policies) because of lax security at airports and the failure to track foreigners who've violated their visitation contracts, not because we don't have some military tribunal.

quote: Meanwhile, while we have people who have stated outright their intent to wage nuclear and chemical war against us

Gee, you'd have the government protect us after it has created these enemies?

quote: you ***** and whine about a military tribunal which does not yet exist

Are we supposed to wait until after the laws are passed? Kind of stupid, don't you think?

quote: about pedantic questions on the interpretation of what is an "unreasonable" search or siezure under the Fourth Amendment

But when you contemplate the meaning of the 4th Amendment, you are not engaging in "pedantic questions" about what constitutes an "unreasonable" search. You succeeded in stinking up this thread with both your hypocrisy and stupidity.

quote: and about the function of National Guard troops acting in a constitutionally permitted role (nationalization in time of public emergency)

The National Guard is not in the Constitution, or did you ascertain the opposite after asking yourself a pedantic question?

quote: at facilities with Federal jurisdiction (the function of airports is interstate transportation and commerce)

Interstate transportation is not in the Constitution and flying an airplane to another state is not interstate commerce, the transaction of fee for service took place in the same state.

quote: Everyone else can bend over and take it up the ass at the terrorists convenience

Let me see, US foreign policy = terrorist attacks on Americans. And you point at the people who oppose these policies and the infringement on our civil liberties as the problem?

quote: as long as you aren't "affected" by an order authorizing the executive branch to do something in the future that may never be done, and won't in any conceivable likelihood be done to you

I was never a slave, does that mean I shouldn't oppose slavery?

	26-11-2001 11:23									#77
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Ramo, (especially) Berz,

Lonestar, Slowwhand, by what right does the federal government ration, say, food? And while we're on the subject of food, go look up a case called Wickard v. Filburn if you want to see some of the injustices done to civil liberties in the name of the good of the many.

	26-11-2001 11:27									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I agree with most of what David has written wrt civil liberties, blah, blah, blah. I've argued about this enough since 9/11. Ah, something new... 1. Massive theft of Amerindian lands 2. The Fugitive Slave Act 3. The first protective tariff 4. The First Bank of the US 5. The Whiskey Excise Tax 6. Attempting to crush the slave rebellions in Haiti And I'm sure there's some other stuff I can't recall at the moment... So Washinton was a bastard.

Would you consider doing me a great favor?
Go live in the hell hole they call Afghanistan, then whine about the liberties you've lost.
You have it made, bud.

	26-11-2001 11:29									#79
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Ramo, (especially) Berz, Lonestar, Slowwhand, by what right does the federal government ration, say, food? And while we're on the subject of food, go look up a case called Wickard v. Filburn if you want to see some of the injustices done to civil liberties in the name of the good of the many.

David, I'm losing patience with you rapidly.
Giving up gas or whatever isn't jack.
You need to withdraw your head from your anal orifice, and get with the real world.

	26-11-2001 11:35									#80
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Well, since you apparently didn't look it up, Wickard v. Filburn involved the federal government telling a farmer he couldn't grow food for his family outside of the grain he sold on the market during the New Deal, a huge violation of civil rights and just one example of the federal government running wild with very liberal definitions of interstate commerce.

And giving up gas certainly means something to ME - if I can't get gas, I can't get to school, I can't go to the movies, I can't go clubbing, I can't drive to the grocery store, etc. And guess what? I care far more about going to the grocery store whenever I want than I do about the US fighting a war 8000 miles away that it probably shouldn't be in anyway (not referring to Afghanistan, I'm referring to something where there would be actual rationing, ie World War 1, World War 2, etc.). Call me selfish - fine. I just call it consistent with the ideals of the Founders and the Constitution.

	26-11-2001 11:37									#81
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Oh, and if joining the real world means "entangling alliances" and foreign wars, I'll just keep my head where it is, thank you very much.

	26-11-2001 11:42									#82
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, since you apparently didn't look it up, Wickard v. Filburn involved the federal government telling a farmer he couldn't grow food for his family outside of the grain he sold on the market during the New Deal, a huge violation of civil rights and just one example of the federal government running wild with very liberal definitions of interstate commerce. And giving up gas certainly means something to ME - if I can't get gas, I can't get to school, I can't go to the movies, I can't go clubbing, I can't drive to the grocery store, etc. And guess what? I care far more about going to the grocery store whenever I want than I do about the US fighting a war 8000 miles away that it probably shouldn't be in anyway (not referring to Afghanistan, I'm referring to something where there would be actual rationing, ie World War 1, World War 2, etc.). Call me selfish - fine. I just call it consistent with the ideals of the Founders and the Constitution.

You're certainly "Me" orientated, aren't you?
I hate to burst your bubble, but there are a great many people who manage to make it to their college classes without wheels.
You ought to consider your ass lucky you get to go to college.
Being the selfish ass you are, that doesn't cross your mind, does it?
Go ahead on. Keep your head firmly planted.

	26-11-2001 11:48									#83
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We can argue selfishness all night. I wish you'd address some of my, or even better, Berzerker's, actual points about civil liberty.

	26-11-2001 11:53									#84
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Jesus Christ, David.
In what way? In how many ways?
Sometimes you have to put aside what's ideally best for David.
Is that so hard for you to grasp?
I guess you're the U.S. equivalent to silver spoon fed Infatuation.

	26-11-2001 11:59									#85
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I agree. I would certainly put aside my personal comfort, even my life, to ensure that civil liberties for all would be maintained. Hence my oft-repeated assertion that I would gladly fight against the US government to defend our liberties, but not for it in a foreign war, such as every war from the War of 1812 on.

And I also really wish you'd stop with the personal attacks. I think it's abundently clear I'm not trolling, and I think it's clear I'm not acting like Infatuation either. Come on Slowwhand. Address the points made in this thread, don't attack me personally.

	26-11-2001 12:01									#86
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I bet you 100.00 bucks says somebody tries to assasinate him during 2002.

	26-11-2001 12:05									#87
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Dave, Berz, Ramo

And Dave, you shouldn't be hounded for thinking about you. In an individualistic society, the individual's wants and desires and cherished, and deservedly so, I think.

	26-11-2001 12:07									#88
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faded - I wouldn't shed too many tears.

Imran, yup I agree. The US is the most individualistic society on the planet. Can't fault me for being an individualist - although as I've stated before I'm more than willing to put my life on the line for freedom - that is, when freedom is actually threatened, not just when the government says it is.

	26-11-2001 12:08									#89
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I give up on you, David.
Nobody is paying me to try and straighten out your selfish and sheltered mind.
And yes, you are just like Infatuation.
Exactly. Sheltered, selfish, and unappreciative of the opportunities you have.
Frankly, I don't care.
Eventually, you'll pay. One way or the other.
You're on your own, kid.
You will remember I tried to warn you, I hope.
Now, it's all on you.

	26-11-2001 12:13									#90
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Slowwhand, you are one of the posters on here I have respect for. We simply have a difference of opinion in this case.

I just wish you'd directly address some of the points made by myself, and made much better by others.

Maybe I will pay for idealism - probably, in fact. Does that make idealism wrong? No, on the contrary, it legitimates it more than anything else.

You do have one thing right. It's all on me. I'm one of the VERY VERY few left in the US who want to hold the Constitution to a literal, strict interpretation, one of the few who wants to maintain liberal civil liberties as laid out in the Constitution, one of the few who wants to limit foreign involvement and avoid entangling alliances. Yes, that's all on me, and I'm very proud of that fact.