26-11-2001 12:17									#91
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Dave... it is this reason I've seriously considered putting Slow on my ignore list.

He's seriously become a major league ****, who thinks he is the parent of all the posters younger than him and thus can lecture them on how they should live their lives.

A big **** YOU to Slow!

	26-11-2001 12:23									#92
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Well, Imran is right in that you are being a bit condescending. On the other hand, no one is on my ignore list. I figure everyone has something good to say if you just wade through the bullshit.

	26-11-2001 12:25									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Dave... it is this reason I've seriously considered putting Slow on my ignore list. He's seriously become a major league ****, who thinks he is the parent of all the posters younger than him and thus can lecture them on how they should live their lives. A big **** YOU to Slow!

Your kind is why other Muslims are having problems.
Why don't you go sit somewhere with your hand out ?
It doesn't have a damned thing to do with age, I enlisted at 19.
What it has to do with, is having just the slightest clue about appreciating.

	26-11-2001 12:29									#94
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quote: Your kind is why all the other Muslims are having problems.

No, Muslims are having problems because some Americans can't respect civil rights and prefer to discriminate based on race - in their mind, just because some misguided Muslims flew planes into buildings, all Muslims must be bad. Wake up! Islam is a very peaceful and caring religion, as much as Christianity is.

And I'm not sure how Imran's religious beliefs would line up with those of, say, Mohammed Atta, so you'd better be careful there.

	26-11-2001 12:55									#95
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, Muslims are having problems because some Americans can't respect civil rights and prefer to discriminate based on race - in their mind, just because some misguided Muslims flew planes into buildings, all Muslims must be bad. Wake up! Islam is a very peaceful and caring religion, as much as Christianity is. .

This is the biggest bullocks. Racism is a matter of someones opinion. Institutional Racism is illegal.... It doesnt hold anybody back.

Nobodys discriminated against muslims DF. 1 muslim dude was booted off a plane cause he was acting suspicous. Now he sues airlines. He has the right to do that.

There is no God Damn discrimination going on in America. Racism yes.....Discrimination...NO. There is a huge difference. They are seperate issues. Dont mix the two

	26-11-2001 12:58									#96
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faded, I was mainly responding to Slowwhand's comment more than making a point myself...and there have been instances of Muslims being targeted specifically because of the Sept. 11 attacks.

	26-11-2001 13:03									#97
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Ya I know what your saying.

I just get extremely tired of people tieing Discrimation with Racism.


Racism= What is going in america. Opinions.....Stereotypes

Discrimination= what used to go on in America. Institutionalized Segregation......etc.

	26-11-2001 19:19									#98
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America nor any other country will ever be perfect for everyone. EVER. Time to start getting realistic.

I just don't understand people that NEED civil liberties and cry for them, but are not willing to fight for them.

In a perfect world, civil rights would be fundamental for everyone on the globe. Not just people that live in North America and Europe. But goddam, this isn't a perfect world, and argue as you may, civil liberties are a priviledge. We are priviledged to have them. If temporarily denying a minute percentage of people their "civil rights" to ensure the safety of life for the rest of the country, so be it. Rights are something that must be protected, but not at the expense of more dead innocent people.

Lets also remember that the people that made this happen are the people WE elected.

	26-11-2001 19:42									#99
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This thread illustrates why being a U.S. president would suck.
Clinton devoted time to domestic issues, and gets blasted.
So far, Bush has had to focus on foreign policy, and gets blasted.
The job pays well, but it doesn't pay enough.

	26-11-2001 20:02									#100
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No different now than ever sloww.

A president will always get blasted for something. No country is ever going to have a perfect leader. Impossible. That is unless someone elects david floyd

	26-11-2001 23:34									#101
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quote: If temporarily denying a minute percentage of people their "civil rights" to ensure the safety of life for the rest of the country, so be it.

Tell me, how does giving Ashcroft authority to indefinitely detain aliens, without any judicial review, "ensure the safety of life for the rest of the country?" How does circumventing judicial review in gaining financial data, education records, a whole plethora of information the state is not warranted in looking at arbitrarily "ensure the safety of life for the rest of the country?" How does making a crime out of something that can be twisted to mean practially anything (see the definition of domestic terrorism) "ensure the safety of life for the rest of the country?" How does extending wiretap authority over an entire area in which a so called "domestic terrorist" resides "ensure the safety of life for the rest of the country?"

quote: Would you consider doing me a great favor? Go live in the hell hole they call Afghanistan, then whine about the liberties you've lost. You have it made, bud.

Would you consider stuffing your sanctimony up your ass.

	26-11-2001 23:56									#102
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Well Righteous Ramo, it sure as hell couldve prevented 9-11 from happening

A little inconvenience or a little discomfort to a few people is better than people dying. Isn't it?

This isn't ww2 and rounding up every arab like we did Japanese isn't exactly happening is it? This is hardly as big of a deal as some make it out to be.

	27-11-2001 00:03									#103
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Ramo is an excellent example of why immigrants are better citizens than many people born here.

MOST immigrants appreciate every delicious drop of freedom, while those like Ramo take it all for granted.
Ramo has absolutely no basis for comparison.
Sanctimonious? What a laugh.
It's you, and people like you, that are sanctimonious hypocrites who haven't a clue, and make it so easy for things like terrorism to happen.
Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.

	27-11-2001 01:13									#104
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quote: Well Righteous Ramo, it sure as hell couldve prevented 9-11 from happening

I believe I asked you how.

quote: A little inconvenience or a little discomfort to a few people is better than people dying. Isn't it?

Sure, Senor Franco. Why, if everyone is locked up, no one would be murdered.

quote: MOST immigrants appreciate every delicious drop of freedom, while those like Ramo take it all for granted.

I take freedom for granted? You're willing to throw them away!

quote: It's you, and people like you, that are sanctimonious hypocrites who haven't a clue, and make it so easy for things like terrorism to happen.

I really don't see how opposing the indefinite detention of aliens, without judicial review, makes it easy for terrorism to happen. Then again, I'm not a Republicrat.

quote: Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.

I'm not a pacifist. Nor do I currently oppose the war against the Taliban.

	27-11-2001 01:30									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Ah, something new...

I thought someone would like it.

Now for some random points:

quote: 2. The Fugitive Slave Act

For the sake of arguement: Leaving aside the moral question of slavery and the fact that the government lacked the authority to ban it at that time, why shouldn't a person have property that was either lost or stolen returned to them?

quote: 3. The first protective tariff 4. The First Bank of the US 5. The Whiskey Excise Tax

What's wrong with these points?

quote: 6. Attempting to crush the slave rebellions in Haiti

Why were we there? Hati was a French colony at this time, right? Why weren't they taking care of the rebellion on their own like any other colonial overlord?

quote: And I'm sure there's some other stuff I can't recall at the moment...

Of that I have no doubt.

	27-11-2001 01:42									#106
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quote: Leaving aside the moral question of slavery

That's kind of my whole objection..

quote: What's wrong with these points?

These were laws intended to steal from the poor to benefit the rich. Theft is wrong...

quote: Why were we there?

To prevent something of a domino effect.

quote: Hati was a French colony at this time, right? Why weren't they taking care of the rebellion on their own like any other colonial overlord?

Well, there was a minor conflict going on in Europe at the time...

	27-11-2001 02:01									#107
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quote: I believe I asked you how.

You already stated it for me! I thought the implication was clear! Better intelligence. Over and over, the issue that kept coming up was lack of intelligence about these people who came into this country. Some of the hijackers were in the country on expired visas that were never even used for their sole intent in the first place! Keeping tabs on aliens and insuring they are doing what they said they were gonna do would be good for starters!

Gathering information and then scanning it for red flags is not much of a cramping of ones rights. So the gov intercepts a few telephone calls and grabs a few emails. So? If a red flag goes up and a terrorist activity is detected, then it is a success. So a person's phone call got screened by a computer for word recognition. So? I sure as hell wouldn't take offense. If it could help nab a terrorist and save even one life, my slight violation is worth it.

quote: Sure, Senor Franco. Why, if everyone is locked up, no one would be murdered.

Big difference between putting everyone in jail and putting people who have links to terrorism in jail. And of those people, some will be completely innocent and yes, pissed off. But again I ask, whats worse, a few pissed people and a little civil lawsuit, or a few thousand more people dead? I chose the former any day.

	27-11-2001 02:12									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's kind of my whole objection..

Then all I've got to say to that is that the government lacked the authority to do what should've been done and had to operate within the bounds it was provided.

quote: These were laws intended to steal from the poor to benefit the rich. Theft is wrong...

Re point 3: Tariffs are one way for a developing country to gain its economic footing. One need only to take a look at the success of some of the Asian Tigers to see that.

Re point 4: This is the first time that I've heard such an objection to the Bank of the US. Could you expand a bit on the ways it stole from the rich and how it was more onerous than any other bank of the time in that regard?

I'll bring up point 5 once I have time to do some research on the subject.

	27-11-2001 02:15									#109
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quote: You already stated it for me! I thought the implication was clear! Better intelligence.

The relevant part was without judicial supervision. The USA PATRIOT Act entails giving the gov't intelligence not relevant to terrorist activities!

If a connection to terrorism (actual terrorism, not the covoluted definition our new law uses) can be demonstrated, old laws already cover it.

quote: So the gov intercepts a few telephone calls and grabs a few emails. So?

Under new laws, IMF protesters, for instance, can be declared terrorists. They can be monitored without restriction, they can be denied freedom of movement, they can be locked up; in general their liberty can evaporate.

If you can't see any problem with this, I suggest moving to Afghanistan.

quote: But again I ask, whats worse, a few pissed people and a little civil lawsuit, or a few thousand more people dead?

Again, these laws don't prevent more murders.

	27-11-2001 02:27									#110
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quote: Then all I've got to say to that is that the government lacked the authority to do what should've been done and had to operate within the bounds it was provided.

I fail to see how the bounds dictate more pro-slavery legislation. Especially since there were many Northern states that had abolished slavery at the time.

quote: Tariffs are one way for a developing country to gain its economic footing. One need only to take a look at the success of some of the Asian Tigers to see that.

That still doesn't make tariffs anything less than theft. It prevented poor farmers (who made up the vast majority of the American population at the time, North and South) from providing for their families.

I consider our current trade barriers as the most abhorrent aspect of our foreign policy, as I'm sure you know.

quote: This is the first time that I've heard such an objection to the Bank of the US. Could you expand a bit on the ways it stole from the rich and how it was more onerous than any other bank of the time in that regard?

It saddled the gov't with the banking interests...

	27-11-2001 03:12									#111
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Shrubya should be deported to Belgium and tried for warcrimes, only to be released after the psych reports clarifies that his IQ doesn't exceed 80 and he can therefor not be called accountable for any of his actions.

	27-11-2001 06:41									#112
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I have not even noticed a change in my civil liberties. I would notice if 500 more people died because the government didn't have enough power to stop it from happening.

	27-11-2001 10:46									#113
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Ramo, just out of curiosity, would you also consider income taxes theft, even though they primarily rob from the rich and give to the poor? Just wondering

And DinoDoc is right, BTW, regarding the Fugitive Slave Act. That was a perfectly reasonable law, because slaves at that time WERE property, and the federal government had no power to ban slavery. None at all - in fact, even the Constitutional amendment banning slavery is illegitimate, so technically speaking slavery is still legal in the US from a certain point of view. Doesn't make it right, of course.

I'll leave the rest of you with one, very simple quote:
"Those who would exchange a little necessary liberty for some temporary safety deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin

	27-11-2001 10:50									#114
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Slaves were property. You just insist on falling over your own ignorance.
For the record, Texas had little to do with slavery.
No matter Master David's thoughts on the subject.
Texas was in it for State's rights.
Which I still agree with.

	27-11-2001 11:00									#115
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Slaves were property according to US law and the Constitution. That was morally wrong, but fortunately we don't make laws based only on personal morality.

And states rights were a MUCH more important issue than slavery, in any case - why do you think that North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, and Arkansas seceded, as well as most of the other states?

	27-11-2001 11:44									#116
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David -

quote: And DinoDoc is right, BTW, regarding the Fugitive Slave Act. That was a perfectly reasonable law, because slaves at that time WERE property, and the federal government had no power to ban slavery

But the Constitution did not and still does not allow the federal government the power to track down and return our property once it is stolen. And the premise for this Act was just horrible, if the Congress had the power to track down and return one form of property - slaves - then it had the power to enforce all laws pertaining to theft.

Ramo -

quote: I take freedom for granted? You're willing to throw them away!

Lol! This thread has revealed the difference between logic and emotion. Even MtG has come off sounding like a moron when we know he isn't...

Drake -

quote: A little inconvenience or a little discomfort to a few people is better than people dying. Isn't it?

The trade off "we" made is very simple: the Democans traded the live's of the people who were killed in these attacks for the foreign policies they find desirable.
If you really believed we should put up with a little discomfort to save live's, why aren't the Democans the ones suffering the discomfort by having to forego their foreign policies? Do you support Democrats and/or Republicans? I'm tired of people who share a certain complicity telling others they are responsible for what happened.

	27-11-2001 11:44									#117
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quote: amo, just out of curiosity, would you also consider income taxes theft, even though they primarily rob from the rich and give to the poor? Just wondering

I wouldn't say they primarily rob from the rich and give to the poor, but yes I do think our current income taxes are theft.

quote: And DinoDoc is right, BTW, regarding the Fugitive Slave Act. That was a perfectly reasonable law, because slaves at that time WERE property, and the federal government had no power to ban slavery.

You miss my point. The Northern states did not consider slavery to be legitimate at the time, and the federal gov't certainly had no business in enforcing Southern laws in Northern states.

quote: even the Constitutional amendment banning slavery is illegitimate

I'd say that parts of the Constitution are illegitimate.

	27-11-2001 12:29									#118
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Northern Republican Abolitionist movements did away slavery on the pretense of 'States Rights'. During the consititution you cannot dare hold our forefathers accountable for not freeing the slaves!!!

the Union was on the verge of collapse almost as quickly as it was born! Northern and Southern delegates squaabled over where to put the capital.....and who should pay off the massive war debt the Northern states ran up (the south would pitch in obvuoisly)! This Slavery issue had to be set aside for good reason.....the south wielded more power at the time and would have secceded from the Union immediately upon the freeing of slaves! Well.....im glad they did what they did. It all worked out

---------------------------------------------

quote: der new laws, IMF protesters, for instance, can be declared terrorists. They can be monitored without restriction, they can be denied freedom of movement, they can be locked up; in general their liberty can evaporate.

Bullshit!! You are ranting on about somthing you dont know jack **** about. If there planning somthing horrible like what happened in Seattle or Goteburg......my government has the right to arrest these people. In this case they ARE terrorists!

quote: I take freedom for granted? You're willing to throw them away!

Be honest.....you dont give a rat's ass about your freedom..What you call 'Freedom' is what I call 'irresponsibility'. Its stupid to have gone about life the way it was before 9-11. **** CANNOT go on like that. Stop living in the past man! Wake up

	27-11-2001 13:12									#119
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Berz, Ramo, I see what y'all are getting at...my understanding of the fugitive slave law was that the feds themselves didn't track down the slaves, only that they required the return of property to Southerners...

Incidentally, though, the current definition of Interstate Commerce would actually validate the Fugitive Slave Law in the courts, more than likely

	27-11-2001 13:30									#120
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Faded Glory -

quote: Bullshit!! You are ranting on about somthing you dont know jack **** about.

Ramo is right! Did you ever think the RICO laws written to go after the Mafia would be used against abortion protestors? Once a law is passed, it takes on a life of it's own. I have no doubt IMF protestors (and let's leave the vandals out of this) will become "suspected" terrorists by virtue of their political beliefs. But so far, it appears these laws deal only with aliens.

quote: Be honest.....you dont give a rat's ass about your freedom..What you call 'Freedom' is what I call 'irresponsibility'.

Freedom is the absence of coercion or constraints in choice or action. Did Ramo have a different definition? What is your definition of freedom?

quote: Its stupid to have gone about life the way it was before 9-11. **** CANNOT go on like that. Stop living in the past man! Wake up

The problem is you don't understand why it was stupid to have gone about life the way it was. You think it was because we did not have enough security measures in place when the reason we were attacked is because of enemies created by our foreign policies. Just what security measure not already allowed by current law would have prevented this attack? I keep asking this and no one wants to answer.