 |
What Should happen to GWB?
This poll is closed. |
| Reelection |
   |
50 |
30.86% |
| Applause |
   |
13 |
8.02% |
| Not a damn thing |
   |
37 |
22.84% |
| Official Censure |
   |
18 |
11.11% |
| Impeachment and Conviction |
   |
24 |
14.81% |
| Worse than impeachment/Other (Please specify) |
   |
20 |
12.35% |
| Total: |
162 voters |
100% |
|
| |
|
|
drake
|
 |
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
|
|
Better intelligence could have detected something before 9-11 and prevented it. Had we detected some of the red flags then that we know about now, these attacks wouldn't have happened. Period. It was sheer lack of secuirty and intelligence that allowed such a horrendous act to take place. I mean really, did these hijackers honestly believe they could get not one, but 4! planes at virtually the same time? No way. I'm sure they had a good laugh about how pathetic our national security is, and how trusting we are. We let them kill us with our own infastructure. They didn't have to do a thing, our in-efficiency did it for them!
Is terrorism completely preventable though? No. Course not. Can we improve our odds? Sure. Did foreign policy have something to do with this attack? Sure it did, but it doesnt change the fact that America can't make all its problems go away at the flick of a switch. "Tuddah! New foreign policy!"
This crap with the middle east people has been going on with the west for centuries. It's one thing after another, and it probably isn't going to end anytime soon.
Until it does, we need to be better about preventing 9-11 like incidents. If that means stretching a few things to help make people safer, I'm all for it. Much rather see a few people offended about their rights, than another 3-4000 people dead. Wouldnt you? Or no?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
drake
|
|
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
|
|
the latest story I've read reports that ~1100 have been arrested since 9-11, and currently ~ half are still in some form of custody.
Now, is there anything demonstratable for me to show or say to you that this act guarantees safety? No. Course not. But a lot of people that supposedly have links to terrorism are supposedlyin a safe place now and un-able to either conduct terrorist acts themselves or help aid another terrorist. Communications between cells could possibly be disrupted as well.
Can I prove that by taking people with links to terrorism off the streets makes the country safer? No. No way I could either. But on the same hand, is there any way you can prove that it isn't making the country safer? As the un-informed public, for all we know they could have a few major terrorist masterminds in custody. For all we know, they couldn't have anyone except someone that once shined a hijackers shoes.
All I know is that the idea right now is public safety. And we put our public safety in the hands of our government, our military and local law enforcements. Who knows? Maybe I am a kook for thinking that someone might actually know what they're doing. Maybe I am a kook to think that the government is actually trying to protect us, rather than screw us all over as you'd like to think. All I know is that there hasn't been any real issue since 9-11. The people that made this act happen are people we elected. If we didn't have faith in them, and faith in their judgement, we shouldn't have elected them.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Guynemer
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by drake
the latest story I've read reports that ~1100 have been arrested since 9-11, and currently ~ half are still in some form of custody.
|
And not a single one of them has been officially charged with a crime. You don't have a problem with that?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
|
|
drake-
To answer your question, yes I'd rather see more September 11th attacks than an erosion of ANY civil liberty. Who are we, after all, if we only stick to our convictions when it is easy? The true measure of greatness is sticking to them when the times are tough. If there is any greater conviction that guaranteeing civil liberties and Constitutional rights for everyone, even under times of extreme crisis, then I have yet to hear it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
drake
|
|
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
|
|
quote:
I didn't elect them. The first election in which I can vote won't be until '03. And you can be damn sure I won't support a Democrat or Republican. |
Ramo, your single opinion doesn't matter all that much, I hate to say. The mob rules in America, and hate it as we may, that ain't going to change. Do I think everything a leader does is right? No. Are the people that voted himm in (the majority), partially to blame? Yes. Most politicians agendas are transparent.
quote:
And not a single one of them has been officially charged with a crime. You don't have a problem with that? |
Wrong! Most are held because of immigration violations. As in "illegal" immigrants
quote:
To answer your question, yes I'd rather see more September 11th attacks than an erosion of ANY civil liberty. Who are we, after all, if we only stick to our convictions when it is easy? The true measure of greatness is sticking to them when the times are tough. If there is any greater conviction that guaranteeing civil liberties and Constitutional rights for everyone, even under times of extreme crisis, then I have yet to hear it. |
Here we go with this righteous nonsense. Life is more important than trivial sh1t like this act. You won't even remember it in 20 years. No one will. It's just another bump in the road and like it or not, it isn't going to effect anything in this country. The country is just fine and will continue to be fine. We didn't fall apart after ww2 when they locked up every jap in the country did we? We're not going to fall apart now either.
There is so much discrimination in this country already, but you don't cry about it because it's not in the news. This utopian like country you have in mind is never going to happen. The world is too f*cked up. A few peoples feathers will always get ruffled. Just the way it is.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
drake
|
|
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
|
|
I thought I did explain my thinking. While you ask how this is going to make things safer, I ask of you, how do you know it's not? These government agencies have more information than we ever will and allowing some of these people free because of technicalities and loopholes creates a potential danger to society. It's like letting a known guilty murderer walk free because he wasn't read his miranda rights or something. It's bullsh1t (but it's another discussion).
If there is evidence and a man is known to be guilty with the risk of creating an obvious risk to society, I see no harm in keeping him in custody.
In the scheme of things as a whole, does it help a lot? No, it's very insignificant. Terrorism isn't going to dry up overnight because a few of them were captured. I am aware of the overwhelming underlying problems, and yes, they need to be addressed. But those underlying issues, for the most part are not domestic.
A true and just country is a great thing, but what good is the country if it's people live in fear? I myself do not feel I am in immediate danger, but obviously there are people that still do. Being naive and friendly and lovey dovey to everyone isn't a good policy. Our lax immigration laws and political correctness has gotten people in trouble.
You demonstrate to me how this will change the country for the worse, besides in your personal opinions and views, and I will possibly consider looking at this differently.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Ramo
|
 |
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:16
|
|
quote:
Would you be satified if he answered it along the lines of this: ___________ is irrelevent. Why? Because I'm not ______________. ? Fill in the blanks with the words of your choosing and you have yourself a pat response. |
Immigration laws are coercive. One of the principle bases for my beliefs is the non-initiation of force. I don't see why I need to justify freedom of movement any more than freedom of expression. I make an assumption that freedom is good. If you don't like that assumption, too goddamn bad.
quote:
These government agencies have more information than we ever will |
I hardly see why a warrant is too much to ask.
quote:
It's like letting a known guilty murderer walk free because he wasn't read his miranda rights or something. It's bullsh1t (but it's another discussion). |
It's nothing of the sort. If there's appropriate evidence to lock up the terrorist, the jury will convict. If there's reasonable cause to believe a person is suspect, a warrant will be issued.
quote:
If there is evidence and a man is known to be guilty with the risk of creating an obvious risk to society, I see no harm in keeping him in custody. |
There are things called trials to determine if a man is guilty.
quote:
No, it's very insignificant. |
Which is my point. The danger for decreased public safety due to state abuses, on the other hand, is very significant.
quote:
You demonstrate to me how this will change the country for the worse, besides in your personal opinions and views, and I will possibly consider looking at this differently. |
The IMF protestor example would be one way in which the country would be worse. You'd be surprised at the groups the FBI has tagged as terrorist organizations. The NRA, for instance, is classified as such.
Then there's indefinite detention of aliens without judical review.
If you don't understand already that a situation in which the gov't can lock up whoever it wants is screwed up, I don't know how to explain it to you.
quote:
Our lax immigration laws and political correctness has gotten people in trouble. |
Bull. Our dicking around in the ME is what has gotton people in trouble.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
SlowwHand
|
 |
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:16
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mark L
Anyway, to address your ignorant remark. Al Qaida is active in 68 countries. If you kick them out of Afghanistan that still leaves 67. Even if Bin Laden dies it's a victory for them, because Bin Laden doesn't care if he dies or not. So all in all, the terrorists have gotten what they want, namely killing Americans and changing American policies both internally as internationally. So tell me, they have met their objectives while the US has so far met none. Who's victory is this then? |
Your points are pointless.
If they're active in 68, and it's cut down to 67, that's one down and 67 to go. That's perfectly fine.
You eat a meal one bite at a time, don't you?
As noted by others, bin Laden is a liar, a fake, and a fraud.
He's having people with no brains do his dirty work, dying while he hides.
George W. Bush strolled out to the pitcher's mound to throw out first pitch during the World Series, alone. Which was one of the coolest things I've seen lately.
It took 2 1/2 months to get the Taliban out of controlling Afghanistan, and no objectives have been met?
Um, ok. You're a hard guy to please.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
drake
|
|
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
|
|
Lets give Bin Laden a trial while we're at it
So ramo, you suggest a trial with a jury selected from the public for each and every terror suspect? To try people that aren't even American citizens?
Should we allow them bail and time to flee the country?
Did it occur to you that some of the evidence presented in these trials might be sensitive to national security? There are some things that the public shouldn't be privy to. Don't you think?
quote:
If you don't understand already that a situation in which the gov't can lock up whoever it wants is screwed up, I don't know how to explain it to you.
|
The government isn't going door to door and arresting people ramo. You need to relax with that paranoia of yours. This little investigation effects less people that were killed to spark this whole mess.
You say ME is the problem. And it may very well be. But who should pay the price? The American public? Do you think we should all be punished?
A group might not agree with Americas policies, but it doesnt change the fact that mass murdering innocent people is wrong and certainly not the way to get things done. Fact is ramo, things DO need to change, but they are not going to change overnight. It will take time. And during that time, there will still be people that want to kill Americans. Hell, even if we stopped backing Israel for instance, some palestinians and ME arabs would still hate us, and their kids would be taught to hate us as well. Middle Eastern countries have been kicked around by other countries for a long damn time. They have a lot to be pissed about. However, trying to pin all blame on the America of today is crap. Many of the problems these countries are in were caused not only by other countries, other than America, but by themselves.
And guess what else? A country as large as America is ALWAYS going to piss someone off. Compatibility with so many countries different agendas is impossible. There will always be someone that has a problem with the US.
Anyway....we're getting way off topic now.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Ramo
|
|
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:16
|
|
Sorry for the half-assed response earlier. I had to write it in about a minute...
quote:
There is the right to a jury trial, but many go before a judge instead. |
Yes, that's what I meant.
quote:
Why? Because a judge deals with human debris daily, and may not be as firm as a jury who is fed up and wants to send a message. |
You're missing my point. Ashcroft now has authority to deny them a trial, with or without jury. He can detain aliens indefinitely without judicial review, as I pointed out earlier.
quote:
Very doubtful that bin Laden, given the choice, would want to be judged by an American jury at this point. |
I believe bin Laden's attack is considered an act of war, and is not under the contraints of criminal law.
quote:
Did it occur to you that some of the evidence presented in these trials might be sensitive to national security? There are some things that the public shouldn't be privy to. |
I don't know what "national security" issues the state wants to use as an excuse to throw people in prison, but I don't think it deserves this much discretion.
quote:
Should we allow them bail and time to flee the country? |
If the flight risk is high, the bail could always be higher.
Did it ever occur to you that the gov't might abuse the ability of placing whoever it wants in detention indefinitely?
quote:
This little investigation effects less people that were killed to spark this whole mess. |
What "little investigation?" These laws affect all federal investigations.
quote:
A country as large as America is ALWAYS going to piss someone off. |
By backing countries with some of the worst human rights records in the region, such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia, you don't make many friends.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ramo
|
|
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:16
|
|
Yes, I did not intend to write that, as I told Sloww.
As for enemy sabatours, that's a technical point which does not apply to the provision concerning indefinite detention of immigrants.
Last edited by Ramo on 29-11-2001 at 00:19
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:16.
Apolyton Time is 00:16. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
27-11-2001 19:45
|